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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

631 replies

randomname7208633 · 15/09/2020 08:45

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

OP posts:
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VinylDetective · 17/09/2020 15:49

@IntermittentParps

Jesus you're a right apologist aren't you? No, she’s a realist.

This attitude is (partly) why (some) men still feel it's OK to cat-call or grope women in the street and why so few sexual assault and rape claims are successfully prosecuted or even reach court.

The 'real' world, where women's bodies are considered to distract or inflame the violent passions of the poor men who are so powerless to control themselves, can and must change. People like you are responsible for it not changing.

That wasn’t what I meant at all. The question was how would she deal with a similar situation once she’s left school if an employer were to request that she didn’t dress in a particular way, what would she do?
IntermittentParps · 17/09/2020 16:08

Vinyl, one would imagine and hope that a) a workplace would have a clear dress code policy so she wouldn't be in the position of being dressed inappropriately, and b) they wouldn't phrase it in terms of a certain kind of dress being 'distracting' to male colleagues.

DianaT1969 · 17/09/2020 16:26

If the teacher said that, then it's obviously inappropriate. But if it makes you feel better, I went to an all girl's school and bate or partial bare shoulders wouldn't have been allowed.

SBTLove · 17/09/2020 16:34

Regardless of whether the top is allowed or not, a teacher should NOT have said her shoulders are distracting to boys, it’s not the 1950s.
Why should any female adapt her clothes to suit a male who can’t be in a females company without ogling or sexualising her.

oldwhyno · 17/09/2020 16:40

well it seemed the logical place to go next. Staff may feel comfortable (although I know many wouldn't) but leadership and governance might prefer to have a say and everyone involved might appreciate some consistency. If find the notion that a dress policy can be "managed" without discussing the details a little fanciful.

It also neatly avoids having to think about the underlying reasons for doing it in the first place.

SerenDippitty · 17/09/2020 16:41

t's playing with semantics really, but "working environment" doesn't have to mean "at work" in the "adult with a job in an office" sense. Students studying are "working". "dress appropriately for a studying environment" sounds funny. an "academic environment" what would that mean? If you literally saying nothing as a published policy, you leave yourself a bit defenseless if you ever want to enforce anything. But then maybe you're so laissez-faire that's not an issue!

Exactly. A school or 6th form college is not an office but it is not a leisure environment either.

Rossita · 17/09/2020 16:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rossita · 17/09/2020 16:57

Really sorry meant to start my own thread!

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer · 17/09/2020 17:05

@oldwhyno

well it seemed the logical place to go next. Staff may feel comfortable (although I know many wouldn't) but leadership and governance might prefer to have a say and everyone involved might appreciate some consistency. If find the notion that a dress policy can be "managed" without discussing the details a little fanciful.

It also neatly avoids having to think about the underlying reasons for doing it in the first place.

Well, if for whatever reason the staff find a policy can't be written without that level of detail, that's the point where I'd consider it had become more trouble than it was worth and would advocate uniform instead. As priorities go, I'd put it pretty low on the list and would be reluctant to devote much time to it. Others may of course be absolutely thrilled at the prospect, see it as the epitome of relevance in the education sector and want nothing more than to deconstruct the issue of what constitutes work clothing, indeed they might not even want to stop at the examples you gave. The sky's the limit.
oldwhyno · 17/09/2020 17:24

I think the point of having a policy in the first place is to set the expectations clearly, to avoid wasting time (repeatedly) dealing with arguments about infringements.

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer · 17/09/2020 17:39

I think there's a level of pre-planning that's a waste of time when uniform is an option for those sixth forms feeling the need to be very specific.

oldwhyno · 17/09/2020 18:01

Undoubtedly there's a level. And I think there's an amount of effort that's worth investing to avoid drastic recourse like that. Dress code really isn't that hard either in my opinion, but it gets harder if people aren't willing to engage on the topic, or acknowledge why they have a policy in the first place.

randomer · 17/09/2020 18:21

I didn't mean to suggest the young woman should be subjected to inappropriate behaviour in the real world. Rather that in 12 months or so , there may be more urgent issues to cope with.

I do not think my views are tantamount to sexualizing children, and find the inference unpleasant.

randomname7208633 · 17/09/2020 19:55

That wasn’t what I meant at all. The question was how would she deal with a similar situation once she’s left school if an employer were to request that she didn’t dress in a particular way, what would she do?

No, that wasn't the question, because I didn't say she was upset at having to conform to a dress code. You appear to be reframing this discussion to distort what was said.

I said she was upset that she was the one who had to modify her appearance rather than those who couldn't control themselves having to take responsibility. She wasn't upset at the existence of the dress code but at being made responsible for male behaviour.

Go and read for yourself what was actually written and ask yourself if Randomer's response is really something you agree with, because if it is then IntermittentParps has got it spot on.

OP posts:
OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer · 17/09/2020 20:16

@oldwhyno

Undoubtedly there's a level. And I think there's an amount of effort that's worth investing to avoid drastic recourse like that. Dress code really isn't that hard either in my opinion, but it gets harder if people aren't willing to engage on the topic, or acknowledge why they have a policy in the first place.
Your threshold for a worthwhile amount of effort appears to be much higher than mine, because I find the whole issue deeply tiresome and the amount of time and fuss involved mystifying. If I were to begin a new career in 16-18 education, no doubt I'd be better suited to an FE college, where oddly enough this sort of thing doesn't seem to require anything like as much angst.
Thisseatisnotavailable · 17/09/2020 20:44

Most 6th forms that don’t have a inform have business casual. That is not exposed shoulders

Nope, not our local 6th form. In fact there's even a picture in the prospectus of a female pupil with her shoulders on show. And the boys are mostly in hoodies.

VinylDetective · 17/09/2020 21:09

Go and read for yourself what was actually written and ask yourself if Randomer's response is really something you agree with, because if it is then IntermittentParps has got it spot on

I agreed with it because I interpreted exactly as she meant it. You’ve misinterpreted it.

MitziK · 17/09/2020 21:22

If baring shoulders isn't associated with being glamorous, sexually attractive and overt femininity, why are so many wedding dresses and ballgowns strapless and Bardot tops named after an impossibly gorgeous and alluring woman?

I lost out on a job because I was wearing a high necked halter top underneath a suit jacket - it was around 95 degrees in the unventilated office they chose to hold the interview and they told me to take the jacket off before I passed out. Yes, their loss, but I was daft in wearing it in the first place.

My job requires that shoulders are covered as part of the workwear standards - I can wear a sleeveless shirt in the office on condition that I put on a jacket for meeting members of the public.

Most sleeveless tops I've ever looked at have armholes that are so low, there's always a fair amount of bra, if not sideboob visible. NOBODY needs (or particularly wants, to be fair) to see my bra, part of my breast or underarm hair at work. Admittedly, my price range isn't one where finding one made out of high quality material and perfectly cut to fit the proportions of each individual size is likely, but being in the Primark price range is exactly where the average teenager is as well.

If I'm treating a grazed knee or twisted ankle on a teenager, my focus in on the knee or ankle in question. However, whilst doing that, due to the compulsive shortening of skirts, I've also inadvertently seen way more than I ever want to see of teenage girls as, whilst they think it's marvellous that they have legs and can look just like their mates, they forget that not everybody is always looking from the angle where they think their buttocks, inner thighs and crotch are covered.

In a similar way, I've seen way too much of teenaged boy's bodies when there hasn't been an effective dress code - a vest top is usually so low cut around the arms that the chest is largely exposed, trousers so low that you see the start of their pubic hair, backsides (in boxers) hanging out the back.

I'm not getting off on seeing these parts at all, obviously - but I do think that it's inappropriate for me to see them.

If I were to have as much out as either group did, it would be seen as creepy and inappropriate around them - I'm sure quite a few of us remember having a teacher who wore low cut tops and leaned over in class (some more fondly remembering it than others) or who wore a short skirt and then sat with their legs up, either mesmerising or revolting the students with the full frontal Sharon Stone.

Anyhow, the unwillingness to even put on a short sleeved top or a skirt longer than four inches below gusset line is exactly why schools have begun to introduce 6th form uniforms and enforce them.

TheEC · 17/09/2020 21:51

@ BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou Ok.... but you can’t explain what is unprofessional about it? You just blindly follow and accept that obviously that’s how it must be. Right? Because you’re taught it’s unprofessional?

MillyMollyFarmer · 17/09/2020 22:00

randomer

she felt upset that she was the one who had to modify her appearance rather than those who were so susceptible to being distracted

Blimey! How will things go in about 12 months time, when she is in the real world.

This is what randomwe said in response to the comment made in italics. There is no way to interpret it other than how the OP and others did. It’s there in black and white.

Still plugging away Vinyl

MillyMollyFarmer · 17/09/2020 22:02

The 'real' world, where women's bodies are considered to distract or inflame the violent passions of the poor men who are so powerless to control themselves, can and must change. People like you are responsible for it not changing

Yes OP, this is a spot on response that’s worth repeating.

MrsMayo · 17/09/2020 22:51

@Thisseatisnotavailable

Most 6th forms that don’t have a inform have business casual. That is not exposed shoulders

Nope, not our local 6th form. In fact there's even a picture in the prospectus of a female pupil with her shoulders on show. And the boys are mostly in hoodies.

I don't see how a school who is strict on uniform would let 6th formers dress how they like. Why have people got a problem with dress code? Would you turn up at a wedding, christening, interview, graduation without looking smart?
ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 18/09/2020 06:57

Would you turn up at a wedding, christening, interview, graduation without looking smart?

I had shoulders on show at all of those.
Shoulders do not equal not smart. Jesus.

BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou · 18/09/2020 08:52

@TheEC

@ BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou Ok.... but you can’t explain what is unprofessional about it? You just blindly follow and accept that obviously that’s how it must be. Right? Because you’re taught it’s unprofessional?
Employers and schools can make (almost) whatever rules they want.

I used to work somewhere where female staff weren’t allowed to wear trousers as it didn’t give the right professional image.

I don’t have to explain why it’s professional or even agree with it as I didn’t make the rule however, I AM professional and have the choice of following rules or looking for another job.

I didn’t make the rule about shoulders at the school OP is referring to so I don’t have to explain anything about it. I don’t blindly follow - I consider my options, decide I like my job and that not wearing jeans or having bare shoulders isn’t an issue and dress accordingly. DD knew she WANTED to go to sixth form at the school that insisted on suits and sleeved blouses and she decided that was fine, dressed accordingly and had no issues. Incidentally her part time job in a small independent shop has a dress code which includes no strappy or vest tops, shoulders should be covered. It really isn’t unusual.

drspouse · 18/09/2020 09:08

I AM professional and have the choice of following rules or looking for another job.
Or getting your union to back you in sorting out a sexist dress code?
Or, of course, deciding you are now a man.