to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

Fraid so. There’s a poster with way too much time on her hands who’s plugging away as if her life depends on it.

OP Has the school replied to your email with a logical explanation yet?

@MillyMollyFarmer

If you had complained at DH's school they would have told you to find another school.

I doubt any school would tell parents to go elsewhere because they complained. That’s silly. I was one of many who objected, that’s why they couldn’t enforce it.

You can't dictate to a school what their dress code is. Your Children should learn to follow rules. There is nothing wrong with looking smart for school.

I have just looked and it says boys must wear a shirt with a collar and girls should not wear vest tops or t-shirts There are a lot of rules.

Why would you have a problem with this?

I haven't received a reply from the school since my last email asking about the rationale behind covering shoulders and I've not followed it up yet as I've been fairly busy and when I do I'd like to make sure I do so in a way that properly explains my concerns so I need to think about how to word it.

Perhaps some of you are correct that I should have been open with the school about what was said from the beginning, or maybe others are correct in that trying to elicit the school's official stance on bare shoulders in their own words without any suggestions or nudging from me was the right way to go. In either case, by talking to my dd after I emailed them they found out what my issue was without having to correspond with me, so I may as well lay it out plainly when I do follow this up.

The gist of what I wish to say to them is that while the policy itself is not the issue, I find the reason given by the teacher to be sexist and problematic.

Maybe that's all I need to say and they'll understand, but I wonder if I should expand on why I see it that way?

On an individual level, ie in respect of my dd, it made her feel uncomfortable and self conscious, in that her shoulders (which it wouldn't occur to me were anything but an innocuous and non sexual part of the human body) could affect other students, and she felt upset that she was the one who had to modify her appearance rather than those who were so susceptible to being distracted.

In a more general sense I feel that the reason given reinforces sexist notions that the responsibility of male thoughts and behaviour is on women, which I think is a core part of victim blaming and what we might call rape culture (if I'm getting any of this or the terminology mixed up please correct me, I'm just trying to verbalise how I think this sort of thing leads to bigger problems in sexism and sexual violence). For example, when me and dd were talking about it we talked about how often clothing led to phrases such as "She was asking for it" and I asked her how often she had heard that said about a man or if she thought it likely it would ever be used about a man. Imo one of the reasons we are in this situation as a society is because of these small incidents that socialise us into thinking certain ways that we eventually accept as normal.

Anyway for someone who has been busy that was a bit of an essay. One other thing though. It seems the policy was not publicly available and appeared to be rushed (as I mentioned about the PDF) because it was only introduced after a number of students (presumably female) were all given the same warning about shoulders. It seems to be then that the school have decided on a no bare shoulders policy and informed the 6th form.

At some point I'll email the school and try to explain why the reason given to my dd was not acceptable and should not be the official stance of the school.

at some point I'll email the school and try to explain why the reason given to my dd was not acceptable and should not be the official stance of the school.
You know full well this is not the official stance of the school.

How?

I think it is very poor of the school to call your daughter in to discuss YOUR private correspondence with the school.

IMO, appallingly unprofessional.

@billy1966

I think it is very poor of the school to call your daughter in to discuss YOUR private correspondence with the school.

IMO, appallingly unprofessional.

Really?

It obviously concerned her, why wouldn’t they?

VinylDetective

Afraid so. There’s a poster with way too much time on her hands who’s plugging away as if her life depends on it.

love, stop copying my posts and asking me to defend them then! You’re on here too, why not use your own time for something else rather than numerous passive aggressive posts directed to me.

Here you are again... feel free to move on Vinyl if it’s gone on too long

This is an interesting thread!

For those that have no problem with the policy, only the justification given by the teacher, I'm curious what an acceptable justification would be?

Would something like "acceptable workplace attire" "appropriate coverage" etc have been okay?

Strappy tops with bare shoulders aren’t appropriate dress for 6th form. They look like scruffy beach wear or pyjamas. Should boys be allowed to wear sleeveless vests?

Yes Really!

Her father is in correspondence with the school.
They should NOT call her in and discuss HIS query to the school, with her.

If they have any questions regarding HIS query, they should get back to him directly.

What they shouldn't do is try and extract information from his daughter.

His daughter may not know that her father is querying policy.

They have absolutely breached his privacy.

Appallingly unprofessional of them.

They may have been unprofessional, but, ye gods, have schools not got more important stuff to worry about OP?

I actually think OP, that you should let this go and focus on your daughter getting through 6th form during these horrible covid times.................

Actually I'm glad to see a father taking women's rights seriously. The world would better if all fathers did so. Schools are about socialisation as well as A-levels.

I have a vision of a bare armed Mel Gibson in a vest top calling "freeedoom!"

@oldwhyno

This is an interesting thread!

For those that have no problem with the policy, only the justification given by the teacher, I'm curious what an acceptable justification would be?

Would something like "acceptable workplace attire" "appropriate coverage" etc have been okay?

As far as the policy itself goes it's not something that jumped out at me as being definitively wrong, but I did raise an eyebrow at shoulders being mentioned specifically. I'm like another pp in that policies, whether at work or anywhere else, tend to make me think "Why? What is the aim of it? Does it achieve it?" etc.

Obviously in my case I immediately found out the why (or at least one teacher's version of it) but if I had just seen the policy in isolation I might have had the opinion the school was being a bit over sensitive or conservative, since I don't personally think shoulders are anything to bother about, but at the same time I do understand schools have to come up with a dress code and draw lines somewhere, which probably isn't easy.

As far as justifications go I think it would probably be better if they simply stated that all clothing must be sensible, safe, smart, etc. Using words like that allows them to set a standard of dress and they could even give examples of what types or items of clothing they consider to fall outside of those standards without naming specific body parts which has the potential to be (mis)interpreted as saying those body parts are taboo in some way.

@Iknowthingsthatwillhappen

I actually think OP, that you should let this go and focus on your daughter getting through 6th form during these horrible covid times.................

I don't think writing an email to the school to voice my concerns about potential sexism is going to prevent my daughter "getting through 6th form" or impair my focus on supporting her.

I don't think people shouldn't have to put up with any sort of - ism just to get through something, and for what it's worth, she appreciates the support and knowing I've got her back. I wouldn't do it any other way.

@Tavannach

Actually I'm glad to see a father taking women's rights seriously. The world would better if all fathers did so. Schools are about socialisation as well as A-levels.

I completely agree.

My husband is such a champion of our daughter's......I could well imagine him being well pissed off that they were being put in a bullshit position of being responsible for the concentration of the boys in their school...🙄yea right..ffs

(Wouldn't happen as they attend single sex schools.)

@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

You haven’t actually explained why shoulders are unprofessional....just repeated your workplaces policies. Why are shoulders unprofessional?

[quote TheEC]@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

You haven’t actually explained why shoulders are unprofessional....just repeated your workplaces policies. Why are shoulders unprofessional?[/quote]
I don’t know! I never said shoulders were unprofessional! I just said dress codes were about being professional.

If she can't wear the correct clothing for the school, perhaps another school would suit her.

She is probably manipulating you, beware of what she tells you teachers have said to her!

@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

I work in a school and our dress code states that shoulders must be covered.

It’s all about looking professional nothing to do with distracting boys!

I definitely did not say that shoulders are not professional!

@Daphnise

If she can't wear the correct clothing for the school, perhaps another school would suit her.

She is probably manipulating you, beware of what she tells you teachers have said to her!

Really? Have you read the thread, and why do you think she would be manipulative?

That’s a strange comment.