to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

@Daphnise

If she can't wear the correct clothing for the school, perhaps another school would suit her.

She is probably manipulating you, beware of what she tells you teachers have said to her!

She can wear the correct clothing. She was wearing the correct clothing according to the dress code when she was reprimanded, after which a policy was introduced to enforce covered shoulders.

But that point seems to pale into insignificance compared to your statement that she is "probably manipulating" me. I mean, wtf? Where are you getting that from? What is it actually based on from your side of the keyboard?

And are you sure you want to be telling me to "beware of what she tells me", because I've been through that, and your advice would be the worst possible thing I could have done. Please don't follow your own baseless, harmful advice

Brilliant

@oldwhyno

This is an interesting thread!

For those that have no problem with the policy, only the justification given by the teacher, I'm curious what an acceptable justification would be?

Would something like "acceptable workplace attire" "appropriate coverage" etc have been okay?

I think the policy is asinine, but yes, a justification that didn't involve suggesting girls have some responsibility to cover their shoulders so they don't distract the boys would've been better. The stuff about acceptable workplace attire is not sensible given that so many workplaces are fine with shoulders, even if you narrowly define workplace as office, but that's better than sexism.

@randomname7208633

Quite aside from the clumsy way the school has handled this, the underlying issues are policy and justification. I think we agree you don't have one without the other. Policies do need to be published (and ideally not retrospectively....). Justifications don't always need to be published, at least not in full detail, but may need to be offered.

As you point out the issue with this specific policy is one of "where to draw the line". It's an age old question really. If shoulders are okay, are midriffs? What length of skirt? How much cleavage? Boys wearing vests etc. It's for individual settings to form their own policy. There's also a secondary question of how that policy is written. I personally believe in this scenario, simple, brief and unambiguous is best, and I don't have any problem with naming body parts to achieve that, but they could just say "no sleeveless tops".

So the much more interesting point for me is the justification.

"As far as justifications go I think it would probably be better if they simply stated that all clothing must be sensible, safe, smart, etc."

I think you're confusing justification with the way a policy is written. Assuming we are to have a policy at all (anyone up for leaving this entirely to the choice of individual teenagers?!), and draw the line somewhere, why do we do it?

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer you (like many here) don't like the justification the teacher gave, or some vague waffle about "acceptable workplace attire". So would you have a policy at all, and if so what would be your justification, or would you not give one?

I don't think my question got a proper answer basically!

What if we took the sexism out of the teacher's explanation and made it apply equally. "Because dressing a certain way can be distracting to other people". How does that sit?

I wouldn't have a policy related to shoulders no. In general I don't like sixth forms who want students to wear whatever their interpretation of work/professional wear is because it seems like the worst of all possible worlds. Additionally, as what constitutes professional wear even in the narrow confines of an office environment gets more and more varied, it becomes even less useful.

Someone said vests are underwear? In what world? Plenty of people wear vests as tops... Bras and knickers/lingerie are underwear.

A simple policy specifying that tops for both sexes must have sleeves would solve this. Hopefully the school has learnt this lesson.

she felt upset that she was the one who had to modify her appearance rather than those who were so susceptible to being distracted

Blimey! How will things go in about 12 months time, when she is in the real world.

Blimey! How will things go in about 12 months time, when she is in the real world.

Surely the point is that if boys/men were educated not to always view girls/women as sexual beings the real world would improve. For everyone.

In general I don't like sixth forms who want students to wear whatever their interpretation of work/professional wear is because it seems like the worst of all possible worlds. Additionally, as what constitutes professional wear even in the narrow confines of an office environment gets more and more varied, it becomes even less useful

Dress codes are generally unhelpful, eg what does "business casual" mean, but it's not that difficult to have a code that effectively reflects what is generally accepted in the average office. You don't need to wear a suit, but I would not expect anyone to wear strappy tops or expose their midriffs, including the men!

Beachwear is not office or schoolwear, unless you work from a beach hut, I guess!

You can possibly have a dress code that reflects the average office, but there are discussions to be had over how much use this actually is and how expensive it can be.

@randomer

she felt upset that she was the one who had to modify her appearance rather than those who were so susceptible to being distracted

Blimey! How will things go in about 12 months time, when she is in the real world.

Jesus you're a right apologist aren't you?

Hi OP, as a Chair of Governors, thank you for your patience. I think you now need to make a formal complaint, ask the office for a copy of the complaints procedure and work through it methodically. You will also need to ask for the minutes of the GB meeting when the dress code/policy was revised to include this update.

Keep your complaints factual, you have two a) the change in dress code and b) the inherent sexism from a teacher.

If I can help in any way please let me know.

I wouldn't have a policy related to shoulders no

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer sorry, not what I meant to ask. I meant would you have any policy about any aspect of what students wear? (And to be clear, I'm asking in the context of the topics in this thread, policies about what is "appropriate", not policies about e.g. safety attire in labs or anything like that).

Jesus you're a right apologist aren't you?

No, she’s a realist. If your daughter is asked not to wear inappropriate clothing in the workplace, what will she do? Nowhere I’ve ever worked would see a vest top as appropriate work wear and she’d be asked to dress appropriately.

But she’s not at work! She’s still studying! There are loads of jobs where substantial vest tops can be worn! Why are there so many antagonistic responses about this? These rules are arbitrary, the justification is sexist and parents / students are perfectly entitled to challenge spurious rule changes.

Still going here? Wow. Some people have a lot of time on their hands huh Vinyl?

as a Chair of Governors, thank you for your patience. I think you now need to make a formal complaint, ask the office for a copy of the complaints procedure and work through it methodically. You will also need to ask for the minutes of the GB meeting when the dress code/policy was revised to include this update.

Keep your complaints factual, you have two a) the change in dress code and b) the inherent sexism from a teacher.

The most relevant and helpful post on this thread. Your school is lucky to have you.

@oldwhyno

I wouldn't have a policy related to shoulders no

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer sorry, not what I meant to ask. I meant would you have any policy about any aspect of what students wear? (And to be clear, I'm asking in the context of the topics in this thread, policies about what is "appropriate", not policies about e.g. safety attire in labs or anything like that).

I'd prefer just to do as a typical FE college or university does oldwhyno. Keep limitations and rules minimal. If you're getting at whether there might be circumstances where a particular sixth form might be justified in being more restrictive because of factors specific to the school or student body and whilst still not being sexist, depends what they are I suppose.

But if it's that important for a 6th form to have a greater degree of control over what the students wear because of the presence of younger kids, I can't say I find that especially convincing, but if that's actually true then keeping the uniform is preferable to some narrowly drawn version of what constitutes a small section of 'professional dress'. And an even smaller one of workplace dress!

Jesus you're a right apologist aren't you?
No, she’s a realist.

This attitude is (partly) why (some) men still feel it's OK to cat-call or grope women in the street and why so few sexual assault and rape claims are successfully prosecuted or even reach court.

The 'real' world, where women's bodies are considered to distract or inflame the violent passions of the poor men who are so powerless to control themselves, can and must change. People like you are responsible for it not changing.

@OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer no, I'm not thinking along those lines, I was thinking very generically in fact.

I would agree that as far as published policy goes, the less said the better, maybe "dress appropriately for a working environment". But that doesn't mean staff don't have to have a common understanding of how that's implemented, so there is always more "policy" behind the published words in those cases.

So you're okay with sleeveless. Crop tops yay or nay?

Not bothered about them no. And 'dress appropriately for a working environment' is, for me, too far in itself (and seems to be more than this particular sixth form does). They're not at work, and what amounts to a working environment is so colossally varied that there's no argument at all for them needing to get used to wearing a particular type of clothing.

It's interesting that this seems to be primarily an issues in sixth forms, and not with the same age cohort in FE colleges.

Interesting. How far can we take that? Strapless tops, micro skirts, backless dresses, cleavage down to the navel? All basically to be left up to the discernment of the individual (and possibly their parents)?

It's playing with semantics really, but "working environment" doesn't have to mean "at work" in the "adult with a job in an office" sense. Students studying are "working". "dress appropriately for a studying environment" sounds funny. an "academic environment" what would that mean? If you literally saying nothing as a published policy, you leave yourself a bit defenseless if you ever want to enforce anything. But then maybe you're so laissez-faire that's not an issue!

I had a feeling your next question was going to be something along those lines. My answer is that if staff in a sixth form feel unable to manage a dress policy without spending time deciding whether cleavage to the navel is acceptable, continued requirement to wear school uniform is the best choice. That also saves them wasting time on semantic discussions about the difference between working environment and at work.