To ask what mainstream parents really think about the kids with special needs.

[Willbob]

I have a child with SEN. He has complex needs; statement at three transferred to ehcp. We had to fight for a mainstream setting. He has full time 1:1. My older childer is very bright and now goes to a selective grammar school for secondary education. I had the "normal" school parent experience with him.

Other parents at school are mainly pleasant, some more so than others like any parent really but completely different to my my experience with my older child. I do wonder though for those who don't understand or know the sen world what you really think about the kids in your child school like my son? I imagine some like it and see the value of having them there, where as some see them as a drain on funding or a distraction. Just curious really. Though this maybe a good place to ask as anonymous.

@DoubleDolphin he cries when he thinks that he won't see his friends again. That enough for you?

We have NEVER been invited to outings/park/cinema/group whatever.
It's not a case of "oh, they went out once without us" or "well, I haven't tried inviting them". There is only so much I can do and once I've suggested a few outings and no alternatives or reciprocal invitations are forthcoming you have to give up after a while.

Have you actually read any of my posts?

"This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams?"
"Erm, it shouldn't be?"

So you dont think nt children should be encouraged to focus on very important exams to get them qualifications and careers? That's quite telling.

Another post you didn't read. Did you see that word "entirely" in there?
Secondary school should have enough variety to give all of the children at the school what they need. Both the ones who will be going to university and the ones who won't be. The ones who could have a great job working with animals/outdoors but need some 16+ qualifications and wouldn't get them at a specialist school. The ones who could get all A* A levels and the ones who, with support, could pass GCSE English and Maths.

The current system is set up so that NT children go to mainstream school, get qualifications, go to university/college/get a job.
Those who don't fit in go to specialist school, get no qualifications, can't socialise with friends outside school, and don't fulfil even a tiny proportion of their potential.

My DS is not grammar school material but because of major learning refusal (a behavioural issue) in Y2 we were told he needed to go to the MLD school which has had 2 pupils do GCSEs in 11 years, and about 5% go on to mainstream secondary.

But lots of other SEN parents find that the only place that even vaguely meets their DCs' needs is a specialist secondary that offers maybe 4 GCSEs, when their DC is academically gifted.

And yes, there are mainstream schools that integrate well, some VERY well, some are appalling.

It is a complete waste of an education system's money to pay for a much more expensive specialist school when they could adapt a mainstream school.

@MrsKypp many studies, many countries, many disabilities.
As an example, children with Down Syndrome used to all be in specialist schools. The ethos changed and most are now in mainstream schools. At the time that the ethos changed, the outcomes changed. More learn to talk, more learn to read, and adults with DS are now vastly more likely to have a functional outcome in adult life and to be productive members of society.

@missfliss I think most of the issues that you identify could be changed within existing schools. I agree that physical environment/size is a problem too but if schools had proper specialist teachers then a lot of things about environment could be fixed (for example, we chose DS first primary because they had arranged a very similar environment to be much more friendly for children who don't get on with clutter and noise, compared to others). His last school said it would NEVER be possible to find him a safe space as they just had no idea where they would put it. We just looked round a school that uses a summerhouse as a quiet space in the school grounds. Not rocket science (and our experience at his nursery says it would be fine in winter too).

There ARE small, physically, schools and they SHOULD be able (with the right staff) to make the school right for children who struggle in large schools. For example there's a 45-entry mainstream secondary school about half an hour from us that has a well deserved reputation for dealing well with children with ASD. It takes both the staff AND the environment.

Currently, we (SEN parents) are having to choose between our DCs' mental health and their education. And if my DS can't make friends, his mental health will be appalling anyway.

AvonCallingBarksdale I don't know what happened in your daughter's class, but pairing up students at different levels is a legitimate technique which benefits both children/ students.

Often it's only when you try to explain something in a way someone else can understand that you come to understand it probably,bor recognise gaps in your knowledge which you need to fill.

Where all children are a similar level (in sets in secondary) teachers artificially mimic the situation by having children read different texts/ do different experiments and explain them to one another.

Some of my top set children couldn't modify their vocabulary for different audiences. That's a skill gap.

Saying "pretend to be talking to a group your own age who've only been learning English for a year/ pretend to be talking to a group of primary school children/ explain this technical or complex concept in simple words" always reveals that children who are bright and fluent with extensive vocabularies nevertheless don't understand concepts well enough to explain them without hiding behind words they haven't grasped the full meaning of because they can't explain without using those words... Or you "see" something click into place properly through the effort of explaining it.

• properly not probably

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme my friend whose DD is working well ahead of her class level has been doing this and my friend is extremely happy with how this is helping her DD (as well, presumably, as some of the other DCs).

My DD (who is younger) struggles to play with my DS sometimes because she is totally unable to stop herself from reacting when he tries to wind her up.
However, the more mature members of his old class were excellent at playing with him because if he tried to irritate them they just went "meh" and ignored him and all went along happily. This was a useful skill for his classmates to practice as well - indeed, as an adult, I feel quite on top of things and award myself top parenting marks if I don't get wound up when my DS tries to do so.

"16:02drspouse

@DoubleDolphinhe cries when he thinks that he won't see his friends again. That enough for you?"

Not sure why you have said that, seems a bit nasty to be honest.

"We have NEVER been invited to outings/park/cinema/group whatever.
It's not a case of "oh, they went out once without us" or "well, I haven't tried inviting them". There is only so much I can do and once I've suggested a few outings and no alternatives or reciprocal invitations are forthcoming you have to give up after a while."

Mine never got invited to the park either. It doesnt always work like that for everyone. Our lives didnt evolve around school friends and I bet that the same for a lot of people.

"Have you actually read any of my posts?"

Of course, that's why I've replied. You seem focussed on insisting things happen because your child is sen, whereas that might not be the case.

"This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams?"
"Erm, it shouldn't be?"

"So you dont think nt children should be encouraged to focus on very important exams to get them qualifications and careers? That's quite telling."

"Another post you didn't read. Did you see that word "entirely" in there?"

Of course I did, I think you havent understood my response. The main focus at school is to get them oven ready for the outside world, and qualifications is a big part of that. Even lower level jobs and apprenticeships require a pass at English and Maths. Not focussing on that would be a travesty and would be letting down the children.

"Secondary school should have enough variety to give all of the children at the school what they need. Both the ones who will be going to university and the ones who won't be. "

In my opinion, they do. Ours has a range of different programmes.

"The current system is set up so that NT children go to mainstream school, get qualifications, go to university/college/get a job."

Absolutely, as it should be.

"Those who don't fit in go to specialist school, get no qualifications, can't socialise with friends outside school, and don't fulfil even a tiny proportion of their potential."

So do you think if they went to mainstream that would be different?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme
I get what you’re saying and not disputing that it works in some cases. But honestly I think a lot of people in that situation would prefer their DC to be stretched a bit more and not be used as a quasi LSA. I’m not trying to be arsey and to reiterate I do think it’s a funding issue and not an issue fir the child with SEN.

@DoubleDolphin, probably in the vicinity doing bugger all,, its not just the overt physical bullying like a PP said @Oliversmumsarmy so sorry that sounds terrible ,, but the snide children who are generally exclusionary and unpleasant don't get the moral guidance they need and are bloody monsters by the time they are in secondary, i think a real crackdown on prolific bullies is needed in school.

I get that there are often very unpleasant children, sometimes its upbringing, sometimes its nervousness and finding their way in the world, sometimes they are just like that, but a lot of the time it might be they are scared to include them, or they may just not like them. Sometimes it's easy to call them bullies, when they probably arent or they just dont understand the hurt they are causing.

@drspouse

You wrote: @MrsKypp many studies, many countries, many disabilities.
As an example, children with Down Syndrome used to all be in specialist schools. The ethos changed and most are now in mainstream schools. At the time that the ethos changed, the outcomes changed. More learn to talk, more learn to read, and adults with DS are now vastly more likely to have a functional outcome in adult life and to be productive members of society.

Linky?

What studies, which countries, which disabilities?

What was the base line - e.g. were they comparing the local primary vs an old institution type place where people were warehoused? Or vs a good specialised school where children are supported and challenged and helped to thrive?

I can't imagine a youngster with Down Syndrome feeling happy in a large comprehensive. Especially if they are the only person with the syndrome. their classmates are doing all their GCSEs and choosing their A-levels.

Personally, if I were disabled I would love to have at least one other person around me who could relate through personal experience of similar. ideally more than one.

Can you imagine how it must make you feel if you are always the slowest learner in the class? or everyone else can run and you can't walk, or they can hear and chat away but you can't, or whatever.

When my DS was younger we felt absolutely certain that mainstream school was the right place for him, because the outside world is mainstream. However as he got older we saw him fall further and further behind his peers emotionally, socially and academically and his mental health took an almighty battering. The other pupils in his year group were very kind to him but he had no actual friends. We realised that although the outside world is mainstream, he needed time out of it and to leave him there would do him far more harm than good.

Since Year 6 he’s been at a special school. We’re extremely lucky that a suitable school is only an hour away (!) and his place and transport are funded by the LA. He’s in a class of maximum 8 pupils. The whole school has fewer than 80 pupils. For the first time in his life he can be who he is and not be different or the odd one out or the ‘class weirdo’. Slowly and surely he’s transforming into a confident, mature, delightful young man who can concentrate and learn through the school’s specialised teaching methods. He is looking likely to pass his core subject GCSEs. None of this would have happened for him, with the very best will in the world, in mainstream. Oh and he has friends too!

One size does not fit all. My son fits the specific special school he attends and that school fits him.

Personally I would like to see schools that were in between mainstream education and special schools

Ds and dd were struggling in mainstream but were not struggling enough for a special school.

Dd was able to go to a wonderful private school
Because it was a specialist school she had to shine in her chosen field so had to pass to get in.
Academic lessons were for only 1/2 the week but because the proliferation of pupils with dyslexia and other SENs the SENCO department was excellent and although dd only managed 4 GCSEs at C grade they were more than we thought possible.

Both dd and Ds are bright and hardworking and Ds especially studies on his own different things. Part of his ADHD is he is a fount of knowledge about random things.

I would have loved if there was a local ish school that was for those with dyslexia, ADD, or ADHD etc
I am sure it would pay for itself in the long term with the fact the pupils who would have failed in the mainstream system would have people committed to helping them find ways around their SEN and not made to feel different.
Ds got a random reading lesson a couple of time’s per week.
He did struggle with reading but his problem was dysgraphia and needed more help with that.
Dds school had one to one sessions as well as group lessons where they would discuss their SEN and they got to feel like they weren’t alone in their struggles.
They weren’t stupid or write offs because they were never going to achieve A levels or University degrees.

A lot of dds fellow pupils in the SENCO classes now run their own businesses and are working hard to have a successful business

A few met up last week and were laughing about how during lockdown they had all tried to get “normal” shelf stacking type jobs delivery jobs etc and failed.

It is so hard for children who have an SEN and what that brings with it and it affects everything they do through out their life.

Setting out with the confidence that dd and her SEN peers have makes a huge difference.
To dd there is nothing she can’t do (apart from get an interview for a normal job)

Ds is fortunate that he sees his sister and I am behind him pushing him and before this virus hit was just starting to grow his income

Between them my ds and dd have attended mainstream primary, mainstream secondary, ASD unit and independent specialist school. It wasn't until they were in specialist school that they felt included, they felt normal, they established friendships and they stopped being different, their anxiety levels lowered and they were able to enjoy school.
Yes dd won't get the 9 level 9 GCSEs predicted in specialist school despite having an IQ of over 160 but it wasn't going to happen in mainstream either because the pressure applied, the constant testing and the environment broke my daughter. And frankly without good mental health any GCSEs would be worthless.
Maybe in an ideal world there would be schools that had the best of both worlds but for dd to get the therapies she needs and the comprehensive programme of independent living skills the school provide then some of the GCSE's have had to be sacrificed and frankly when she only needs five to move onto the next step then the four sacrificed have little worth anyway when compared to what the school offers instead.

Sorry Drspouse my comment last night was to LittleDollyDaydreams who asked if disruptive children should continue to be segregated into adulthood. My point was that, they way things stand, they already are. Even with employers who try very hard to be inclusive, employing anyone who can't keep their emotions in check is a step too far.

What does happen to these children when school is over and they become young adults?

@whiteroseredrose well you could be describing a child who attended independent specialist school with my son. He was repeatedly excluded from a variety of schools, pre schools and nurseries (he has ASD, ADHD and the usual co morbids) until he moved there age nine. He left the school age 19 and went into an apprenticeship that he chose after doing various work experiences with the school. (In ds's school each post 16 student does weekly work experience changing every term.) They kept him on after the apprenticeship and he is a well regarded member of staff. The school taught him coping skills and behaviour modification techniques and work experience enabled him to learn the skills he would need in the workplace. I think it's probably in these areas that a specialist school education is so valuable.

@Samcro

reading this thread has made me so glad that dd went to a sn school. the idea of her being used as a teaching tool.......yuck.

My DS has SEND (a severe sensory impairment and Asperger's) and is in a mainstream primary. His SEND means that he has an amazing memory (useful when you can't see very well) and he's also academically gifted, especially in maths. (This is not a Xenia-like boast, just a fact .)

I'm so grateful that he's able to be in MS because he gets so much out of being with children less fortunate than him - he's really learned empathy and tolerance and compassion from having to be in maths lessons with NT children who are slower than him. I honestly think it's all part of learning to be a well-rounded and caring human being, and understanding that some children are just not as great as he is . Some of the NT kids can be rough or spiteful, but I just explain to my DS that they can't help it and that he needs to understand that they have needs that are different from his. Sometimes I see their mothers in the playground (from a distance, obviously, it's not as if they'd ever talk to me!) and I'm honestly not judging them - I'm in awe of how they manage to cope with their NT kids day after day. They really are superwomen, I know I couldn't do it! Some of them look so sad and frazzled by their experiences - I do think they're in denial about how limited their DCs' abilities are and are just desperate to make sure they fit in somewhere .

Anyway, I don't really notice which children in DS' class are NT, they're all just kids to me. Except when they're holding up maths lessons because of their poor grasp of place value. Or when they're really slow in recorder lessons because they don't have perfect pitch. Or when Sophie is disrupting the class again by crying because she's fallen out with Evie. Or when they're monopolising all the teacher's time because they can't remember something they were taught two weeks ago. Obviously, I complain immediately to the teacher about that! I do think it's right that the poor NT kids should have the opportunity to benefit from being in a class with my awesomely talented DS, rather than segregated with all the other "normal" kids, but it's hard not to feel just a little bit resentful when you see what an impact it's having on your own child, isn't it?

@hiredandsqueak that sounds like really good news.

I'd like to think that there are more cases like that.

I suspect it would be unlikely to happen in a mainstream classroom though. Maybe if some of the curriculum was replaced by special 1 to 1 CBT type sessions?

@AlternativePerspective

I think that depending on the disability mainstream is often not in the best interests of the child. And I speak as someone who attended a specialist school (I am registered blind).

I think that often parents fight for mainstream because it is often difficult for a parent to think that their child is different and putting that child into an educational setting with other children like them makes it look as if they’re excluding them from mainstream society when actually, often it is the reverse.

There are a lot of outside groups for e.g. children with visual impairments/hearing impairments/other disabilities because many of these children are pushed into a society where they are different, and where there is nobody else like them.

When I was growing up specialist school was the norm, however now mainstream is, and from my experience many people with serious visual impairments gravitate straight back towards the VI-related colleges by 6th form, and then towards friendships with people with a visual impairment. I even know one or two who say that it was only when they actually started mixing with others with a visual impairment that they felt truly accepted, but just thought they were accepted in mainstream when actually their mainstream friends/acquaintances were clearly not as accepting of them as they’d thought.

I think it’s even harder for a child who is educated in mainstream until they’re at secondary age and then a decision needs to be made to send them to a more specialist school or unit, thus giving them the clear message that actually they’re not suited to a mainstream environment, or have passed the point when they are and now need to be educated elsewhere.

The problem arises with the fact that there are so few specialist schools available and many of those are not local, and as such parents often need to A, fight for the places, and b, often it means the child having to board.

I don’t think it should be a case of asking what the other children think/get from the experience, it should be more a question of what the child gains from the experience.

I would say that if a parent needs to fight for a place in mainstream rather than specialist, then the disability is severe as these specialist places aren’t just given and it’s usually the other way around, and perhaps the parent needs to ask themselves whether mainstream really is in the best interests of their child.

There was a MN’er many years ago who had fought for her child to be educated in mainstream. The child had severe CP, was non verbal, could not move arms and legs etc, and TBH I did wonder whether that was in the best interests of the child.

I think primary aged kids are more accepting, but secondary aged kids not so much. Not only of children with disabilities, but those who don’t conform to certain habits/hobbies/interests etc, and often children with disabilities will be caught up in that.

Your experience is really interesting to me @AlternativePerspective because we're currently looking at secondary options for my DS, who is registered SSI, although he still has some useful vision. He's well supported in his primary, and there's no specialist VI secondary provision near us (we're a long way from Hereford or Worcester!) but I heard of a girl locally who did go to one of those colleges for A-levels because she was a Braillist and there was nobody locally who could teach her the Spanish and French codes needed for her GCSEs. Obviously, the specialist colleges are brilliant for that sort of thing! So we'd like to to stay in mainstream as long as possible, while keeping our options open when more specialist teaching might be necessary.

(My DS is a Braillist, but a reluctant one at the moment because he prefers to use his residual vision. I guess that might change when he's a teenager and finds himself having to read larger and larger chunks of text! I hope you don't mind my asking: do you use Braille yourself?)

@mackerella
YES!

What an absolute batshit comment @xenia regarding no IQ below 120 in your experience, in a mainstream private setting. The "as a rough guess" comment affirms it.
I know many that have moved state to private for children with SEN in the hope of better outcomes for the child, unfortunately the reality can be quite different.

@mackerella apparently my df came home from the first day of primary school and told his mum he couldn't understand why the other dc were naughty and didn't answer the questions.
He couldn't understand that they didn't know the answers to what he thought were painfully simple questions.

He struggled in other ways but answering the questions was the easy bit.

Exactly, @lakesidefall!

I've had both experiences and looking back I don't think I had a flipping clue what it was like for parents of kids with SN before i had one myself. Whole different ball game.

Joan, IQ of 120 was the traditional grammar school and university entrance cut off point and is typical of the very academic and in my case single sex schools we chose. I was just as keen to have single sex as academic selection. There are loads of private schools which cater for different kinds of children. I never said otherwise. our local areas has at least 8 of them from those most academic to those selective on music ability to those where you can get in even if you just about fail the entrance test.

Henrietta Barnett (state secondly academic, selective) is different from some other state schools as much as Manchester grammar (private very selective) is different from Millfield or Aldenham.

@Xenia

Joan, IQ of 120 was the traditional grammar school and university entrance cut off point and is typical of the very academic and in my case single sex schools we chose. I was just as keen to have single sex as academic selection. There are loads of private schools which cater for different kinds of children. I never said otherwise. our local areas has at least 8 of them from those most academic to those selective on music ability to those where you can get in even if you just about fail the entrance test.

Henrietta Barnett (state secondly academic, selective) is different from some other state schools as much as Manchester grammar (private very selective) is different from Millfield or Aldenham.

As an Oxford alumna and an academic at a RG university, I can assure you that we do not test the IQ of candidates.

@hiredandsqueak I hope you don’t mind me asking, but are you paying for specialist independent school or are scholarships and bursaries available?

My son is only 5 but there’s no way I’m going to let him attend the local comp. It’s not a bad school by any means (OFSTED outstanding for what it’s worth) but there’s no way he would manage socially. It would be like throwing him into a bear pit.

He’s autistic and has a brain like a calculator. I feel like I have to start thinking about the options available to us even though it’s a long way off.