To ask what mainstream parents really think about the kids with special needs.

[Willbob]

I have a child with SEN. He has complex needs; statement at three transferred to ehcp. We had to fight for a mainstream setting. He has full time 1:1. My older childer is very bright and now goes to a selective grammar school for secondary education. I had the "normal" school parent experience with him.

Other parents at school are mainly pleasant, some more so than others like any parent really but completely different to my my experience with my older child. I do wonder though for those who don't understand or know the sen world what you really think about the kids in your child school like my son? I imagine some like it and see the value of having them there, where as some see them as a drain on funding or a distraction. Just curious really. Though this maybe a good place to ask as anonymous.

@drspouse

You seem to want no specialised schools, just throw everyone in together and expect them to thrive against the odds. CRUEL.

Children with SEN do better overall in mainstream schools.
Mainstream schools need to be RADICALLY DIFFERENT but all children deserve to be in schools that take all children.
I do not believe in segregation in any other area of life so why would I think that schools should be segregated?

I also believe that NT children should learn to get along with children with SEN and vice versa. That is never going to happen if the assumption is "children should be in specialist schools if they can't cope with mainstream" not "mainstream needs to change drastically so it's suitable for all children".

"mainstream" is a label. Maybe if we got rid of that label this would all work out better. It would rid us of things like seeing other schools as "segregation"

I am against segregation 100%

but am 100% for reflecting our wonderful diversity by accepting and valuing our differences.

My DD went to a very small primary school. There was a fairly high proportion of SEN kids in her year. The girls cohort for her year was mostly under 10 individuals over several years and at a guess I would say at least 3 that I know of were SEN. One of these girls was quite good friends with DD but she didn't spend time with the others outside of school.
I didn't find my DD was disadvantaged in any way and it was good for her to be in a school setting with a variety of different children. She learnt to be more patient and aware that not everyone is the same.
I'm not sure the school was brilliant in looking after their SEN students, but the ethos of the school was a friendly welcoming one.

You seem to want no specialised schools, just throw everyone in together and expect them to thrive against the odds. CRUEL.

I agree tbh.
This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams? How is that fair to anyone?

Talking to my NDN, we are failing these children. Having taught mainstream, I failed some of these children as teaching mixed ability meant I had to hit targets for all the abilities in the class. These children need far more support; promises need to be kept about funding, support and staffing. Teachers need to be better trained for dealing with the needs of these students.

I do think in some cases, schools that can focus solely on those with special needs are required, with properly SEN trained teachers, or at the very least, each secondary should have such a unit, properly staffed and funded, so that the skills, time and attention needed can be given.

Meant to add, I taught secondary.

Drspouse. Life is often very cruel, that's a fact. Nothing can be done in a lot of these situations. As another poster has said what do you want to happen, do you want children to be forced to invite people they dont want? And yes, I've said life is often cruel to members of my family when weve had to accept things the way they are, as they need to accept life as it is often and build up a resilience. Weve all had our children upset when kids have left them out of things, that's life.

This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams?
Erm, it shouldn't be?

Having taught mainstream, I failed some of these children as teaching mixed ability meant I had to hit targets for all the abilities in the class.
So mainstream schools shouldn't be set up like this. Why should we accept that they are?

schools that can focus solely on those with special needs are required, with properly SEN trained teachers
Why can't these teachers work in mainstream schools? Is there a forcefield preventing them from entering?

Why on earth does specialist provision have to be in a separate school?
Why can't all schools be set up to provide what all children need?

Pushing children with SEN away to specialist schools does exactly what my DS is experiencing - other children don't understand how to play with him and accept him so he has no friends and he loses all the skills he had (which were pretty good in YR and Y1) in playing with NT children.

@drspouse

You seem to want no specialised schools, just throw everyone in together and expect them to thrive against the odds. CRUEL.

Children with SEN do better overall in mainstream schools.
Mainstream schools need to be RADICALLY DIFFERENT but all children deserve to be in schools that take all children.
I do not believe in segregation in any other area of life so why would I think that schools should be segregated?

I also believe that NT children should learn to get along with children with SEN and vice versa. That is never going to happen if the assumption is "children should be in specialist schools if they can't cope with mainstream" not "mainstream needs to change drastically so it's suitable for all children".

you wrote, "Children with SEN do better overall in mainstream schools."

__

1. Which children with SEN? (SEN is incredibly diverse).

1. Better in what way? Academically, emotionally, have more friends, feel happier, develop physically, mentally better?

1. Which studies are you referring to? Countries, areas, age groups, abilities etc?

It's easy to claim children with SEN do better in ms and it most certainly suits the government because it's one hell of a lot cheaper than providing a wider variety of schools with more specialised teachers.

Inclusion does not work for everyone.
It is madness to suggest that kids with SEN can and will thrive in a mainstream setting.

In the case of my child with sensory processing disorder and accompanying learning difficulties and autism none of the following will work:

• large class sizes
• many transitions every day
• a busy noisy environment with stimulating wall displays

- A peer group that he cannot identify with

• a lack of inbuilt OT support
• class changes every year
• unpredicatable events and one off things
• rigidly enforced rules

Just to name a few.

It is a recognition that the whole environment of a mainstream school not just the attitudes of the people in it is missing from the idea of inclusion at al costs.

Unless you are going to physical alter the architectures of school buildings, school social and governance structures and rip up the rules etc then inclusion is not always the right thing.

what do you want to happen, do you want children to be forced to invite people they dont want?
I want children to learn how to play with a variety of other children.
If they never see a variety of children, they will never learn to play with them.

IMPORTANT EDIT

Inclusion does not work for everyone.
It is madness to suggest that kids with SEN can and will thrive in a mainstream setting all of the time.

@missfliss you can obviously decide what you want for your child but none of those things are NECESSARY in any school.
Many of them are really easily fixed and a lot of mainstream schools get these things right.
It's the will to include that's missing - not some law of physics that prevents schools from employing knowledgeable teachers/making calming environments/understanding what's hard for children/including LOTS of children with SEN so that all the children understand how to adapt THEIR socialisation to include children who find that harder.

"Why can't children receive the education they all need in the same school as other children?"

Because it doesnt always work. Surely you can see this. You must know that there are a range of special schools that cater for children, usually those with the more severe behaviours or disabilities. you couldnt mix these children in with nt children, it would be a disaster. These children need specialist care.

@drspouse

This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams? Erm, it shouldn't be?

Having taught mainstream, I failed some of these children as teaching mixed ability meant I had to hit targets for all the abilities in the class.
So mainstream schools shouldn't be set up like this. Why should we accept that they are?

schools that can focus solely on those with special needs are required, with properly SEN trained teachers
Why can't these teachers work in mainstream schools? Is there a forcefield preventing them from entering?

Why on earth does specialist provision have to be in a separate school?
Why can't all schools be set up to provide what all children need?

Pushing children with SEN away to specialist schools does exactly what my DS is experiencing - other children don't understand how to play with him and accept him so he has no friends and he loses all the skills he had (which were pretty good in YR and Y1) in playing with NT children.

a few reasons:

SEN is incredibly diverse. how on earth can every school support all SEN? they can't and the people who end up most let down are the children with SEN.

Having SEN children in ms if often to make others feel good. Oh aren't we good, we have a SEN in our ms class, how tolerant we are...

Some examples of SEN:

one child has an IQ of 50

one child has an IQ of 140 and CP affecting 4 limbs and speech

one child experienced trauma as a young child before being adopted

one child lives with autism and is non verbal

one child has severe anxiety

one child is blind

one child is profoundly deaf

etc etc

We should accept and celebrate our diversity. We can only do that by truly providing a wider variety of learning environments. Drop the 'mainstream' label. Maybe have schools that specialise in 1 or 2 types of SEN so the children's needs and wellbeing are better met.

^Why on earth does specialist provision have to be in a separate school?
Why can't all schools be set up to provide what all children need?^

That’s never going to happen. Here anyway education funding has been cut to the bones of its arse and it was never enough to begin with.

The only positive I’ve seen recently is our new minister for higher education making inroads to adults with SEN accessing third level education.

But there is no way in hell every State school in my country will be funded to become completely inclusive. It just won’t happen. So we have to work within the boundaries of what we have, unfortunately.

(By the way, I am highly aware that suggesting mainstream schools adjust rather than that there should be more specialist schools is DEEPLY unfashionable in many circles - both mainstream and SEN.

But I very firmly believe that mainstream schools should adapt. Hugely adapt. Change their whole culture. Some manage this very well. And I also firmly believe that saying "this school will never be suitable for your child" and "why should my child play with your child when they don't want to" only tells me what you think of my child - it does not tell me that my child isn't a good enough playmate or that the school cannot be suitable for my child).

Anyway loads of ablism on here, so I will probably sign off.

Drspouse....you know, a lot of people just dont do playdates. I never did. I couldnt, I worked and my kids went to a childminder. You seem to be presuming everyone with an nt child is being mean to your child, perhaps they just arent? Perhaps they just havent got the time or the inclination. Perhaps there are a variety of reasons.

there is no way in hell every State school in my country will be funded to become completely inclusive. It just won’t happen.

Then your country is very stupid because it would be cheaper than setting up new provision, give better outcomes for children with SEN and as a byproduct it would educate all children in how to accept diverse members of society.

*And actually I don’t even know practically how that could be done!

SEN covers way too big a variety. It’s a catch all. How could every single school be set up in a way that caters exactly to every single child with SEN? That’s not even including NT children with a host of complicated issues that also need attention and help!

@DoubleDolphin We see them all going off on outings together and we see that they don't ask us. We aren't blind.

"This thread is focussing primarily on primary school but what happens in secondary school when the focus is entirely academic and exams?"
"Erm, it shouldn't be?"

So you dont think nt children should be encouraged to focus on very important exams to get them qualifications and careers? That's quite telling.

@drspouse
FWIW - I kind of agree with you...I just can't imagine the culture, targets, physical environment... everything...about mainstream changing in the way it needs to in order for inclusion to work.
It makes me sad that I am so cynical about this, because the mainstream preschool I worked in, and where my ds went, worked very hard to be a truly inclusive setting, no matter how complex a child's needs.
Unfortunately, seeing how ill my ds became in mainstream, how isolated he was, and how we as patents have been treated in trying to get the right support for him, has utterly broken my faith in the idea of inclusion.

@drspouse

there is no way in hell every State school in my country will be funded to become completely inclusive. It just won’t happen.

Then your country is very stupid because it would be cheaper than setting up new provision, give better outcomes for children with SEN and as a byproduct it would educate all children in how to accept diverse members of society.

My country is not stupid. We’re about to hit a huge recession thanks to Covid just like everywhere else.

The money, man-power and time isn’t available. I’m sure you’re not as naive as you’re sounding right now. My guess is deliberately obtuse.

And I think your accusations of ableism are unfair! I don’t think anyone is saying “why should my child play with your SN child?” Are they?

Practically though, I have no idea who my children play with on any given day. The odd name pops up and they become closer to those children.

But we have had class parties and invited every child.

You put me in mind a bit of one school mum who had absolutely convinced herself that her son was being excluded from parties because of his SN.

No amount of gently pointing out that her habit of dumping her two older children at parties and then leaving for a couple of hours was the root of it.

It wasn’t her son’s needs. It was her cheeky fuckery!

@drspouse

(By the way, I am highly aware that suggesting mainstream schools adjust rather than that there should be more specialist schools is DEEPLY unfashionable in many circles - both mainstream and SEN.

But I very firmly believe that mainstream schools should adapt. Hugely adapt. Change their whole culture. Some manage this very well. And I also firmly believe that saying "this school will never be suitable for your child" and "why should my child play with your child when they don't want to" only tells me what you think of my child - it does not tell me that my child isn't a good enough playmate or that the school cannot be suitable for my child).

Anyway loads of ablism on here, so I will probably sign off.

No, not ablism. You are judging based on your child. Others are judging based on the enormous variety of SEN.

What is right for your child will not apply to 100% of children. FACT.

drspouse

Have you had a class birthday party for your DC?
Are you saying .nobody accepted the invitation?

Have you co-ordinated a group outing yourself?