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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

761 replies

doctormumoftwo · 08/09/2020 04:50

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

OP posts:
weasle · 09/09/2020 23:16

OP
So many replies here that this may get lost.

I've been in your exact situation.
Surgeon
LTFT registrar with young children
London
DH also surgeon
In despair thinking of how to get through FRCS and case numbers and CV and actually be a mum.

I managed to get through it. Very hard but very very pleased I did. I benefited from talking to some positive peers a few years ahead who gave me hope. Careers unit at Deanery also v helpful, probably called coaching service or PSU now?

PM me

Splendidseptember · 09/09/2020 23:43

Nocool.... Then don't have dc.

TheId · 09/09/2020 23:52

SplendidSeptember I think you haven't got my point entirely

Yes your family will be more important than colleagues or a job I am not saying they aren't at all but that's not usually because of decisions you made or didn't make when they were little kids. It's about your relationship through their whole lives. Whether you stayed at home or worked I don't think ultimately determines if they'll be visiting you in that care home.

Lots of people devote many years to bringing up their children full time but still aren't close in later life because of an unfortunate marriage, silly argument or incompatible values. I've seen it loads of times. I am not convinced the early years are the determinant of your whole relationship with your kids and I think it would be crazy to argue otherwise. One factor perhaps but not necessarily the most important.

Caelano · 10/09/2020 00:06

Exactly theld. Relationships are about so much more than whether a parent is home 24/7 or not.

Besides, us working mums have been around quite a while- many of us have children who are grown up, married themselves, are even parents themselves. I think we’d all know by now if children whose parents have careers all turn out to be Emotionally damaged adults who have poor relationships with their parents, and if children of non- working parents were all happy, successful and close to their parents!

BumbleFlump · 10/09/2020 00:13

If you do decide to stop work, don’t expect them to thank you for it. I revolved everything around my kids and they don’t seem to have appreciated it at all. It’s not great for their independence tbh.

Agree with what the second poster said about them needing you less as they get older....can you take a few years off?

SurroundedByIdiotsEverywhere · 10/09/2020 00:30

I think deep down you know the answer... What is more important to you?

I would become a full-time Mum, the children grow up so quickly and you can never get it back!

One parent usually misses out on seeing the children growing up during the early years (usually the Dad) in a two-parent household.

Can you pick up your course when the children are older? Speak with the people in charge.

We always need doctors and you sound very dedicated, however look into restarting training at a better point in life!

Good luck!

Secnarf · 10/09/2020 00:50

It is hugely hugely difficult. I take my hat off to those of you having to balance young children, on-call rotas, shifting from hospital to hospital and having to do all the additional publications, QIPs etc in no time.

Are you on DNUK? It is worth posting on The Couch. There will be good advice from people who are still in training, who have popped out the other end, or who have left medicine. The recently demitted LTFT rep to the BMA is very active on there, and so is one of the current co-chairs.

It is worth seeing if you can get some support via the Deanery. There is access to life coaching through the PSW usually. Do you feel you can approach your TPD to access this? Some Trusts also have a consultant responsible for careers support.

Nobody can tell you what to do, but these can be useful resources when you are making your decisions.

I didn’t have my daughter until I was already well established as a consultant (not the plan, but that’s how life worked out), so I don’t have a comparable life experience, but I’d add these points, which are my personal thoughts and opinions only.

  1. If you do stay in medicine, it will not always be like this. There is more stability and control over your job plan when you take a substantive post, whether as a consultant or not. Even the fact that you are not having to make new childcare plans every year will help.

  2. children have two parents. One career does not have to trump the other. At the moment you might have to play “clinic, theatre, on-call” top trumps, but your other half could go LTFT as a consultant. Depending on the trust, they may be happy for him to shift SPA work out of the hospital, which would free him up for childcare, even on a full-time contract. (There also seems to be less and less benefit in being more than 10 PAs too)

  3. I think you said that you are 60% LTFT, so it can’t be cut back further. It is possible to step off the training wheel, either temporarily or permanently, without having to leave medicine, or even your speciality. For one, there is OOPC which might give you the breathing space to work out how you want to proceed.

  4. I know that you have mentioned that it is not possible to retrain in another field. It really is. It isn’t usual, but it is certainly not rare for people to change specialities. If you feel that surgical life is just not going to be possible, it is possible to change. Yes, you will need to go back a few steps, but at ST3, you really are still at the beginning of higher specialist training. Not saying this to belittle where you are - it is a huge achievement to have won a London surgical training number - but more to say that you are a long time a consultant, and there really really is no rush. I do appreciate that your training has been and will be longer for going LTFT. There are different challenges, different anxieties and different frustrations on the other side of the CCT.

There are also many roles in medicine that are more family friendly, but they are often in specialties that we never think about as we don’t spend much time in them when training.

  1. In the nicest possible way, you need to be absolutely sure that if you leave medicine that it is the right decision for you for the long term, because you are right that it is highly unlikely for there to be a way back into a surgical career after a long career break. You do not want to resent your children in time. I did not intend to have my child so late. However, because the way the cards fell, I knew that I did not want to be a Prof, or President of my royal college or my speciality society or other similar national role. People might say that I have become much less ambitious, but I know that these paths are closed to me because I have chosen not to follow them because I want to spend more time as a mother , not because becoming a mother closed those doors.

  2. As doctors, we are all conditioned to be high achieving and uncompromising, with our eyes firmly lasered in on the next hurdle. Most of us have never failed anything or ever not been a successful. Most of us have just accepted that you go to work, do your full days work and then come home and write a paper or work on a QIP in your own time. And these get added to our c.v.s as markers of success. And then we have families, and it all gets complicated. We don’t have time to dedicate every hour to doing all this extra stuff. Doing all this extra stuff takes away from our family life. If you asked, and people answered you honestly, a lot would say that they constantly feel like a big fat failure. I do! On the face of things, I look very success, and very sorted and colleagues would say that I am very good at what I do. However I feel that I am crap at my leadership role, crap at my educational role, not as on top of my clinical stuff as I should be, and worst of all a terrible terrible mother. I constantly feel like a failure and stressed as there isn’t enough time to do things properly. And I think that’s the key. We are so used to striving to do things perfectly, we feel rubbish because we know that we could do each part better...if only we didn’t have the other part. I’ve had to learn that sometimes good enough is good enough. That is a bit of a digression, because my point is that we are all crazy driven, and you are not alone. You are not the only one to feel this way, it is immensely challenging.

  3. lastly, I just wanted to add that it is OK to say no, that’s it, I quit. There is no shame in it. No failure. It is just that you want something else in your life, something that is much more important than work. Anyone who judges you for it can just p* off.

Actually at this very point in my life, I could have written the same title of your post.

Good luck with all the decision making. Would highly recommend a post on DNUK for sage viewpoints, if you haven’t already. You can post anonymously on The Couch.

Secnarf · 10/09/2020 02:09

Oh, also, I noticed a previous poster suggested going into research as a more family friendly option. I am not sure this is the case.

Well, if you want to get of the training grind to have time to think, there are stand alone research fellow and clinical fellow posts, funded by soft money. There are quite a few in various places in my (medical speciality) field. You would probably be better placed to know about these opportunities in yours.I think something like this could be a temporary option - either for breathing space or to make things work for a bit longer. The ones we have in my unit do tend to be quite 9-5, you don’t have to be on the OOH rota, and there is the opportunity to get clinical experience in our area, whilst also getting posters and publications. Also, it is harder and harder for us to get the funding to provide such posts.

You can go OOPR, but that might not be the answer. In my Deanery, these are only approved if there is reasonable likelihood if they will lead to an MD or PhD. I don’t know if this is a HEE side thing now. A couple of years ago I was the external assessor for the North Thames ARCPs for my speciality and there was a registrar there who was doing a 1 yr OOPR and it was very clear she was returning to training at the end of the year, so it might just be my deanery’s rules.

I would counsel against embarking on a higher research degree OOP purely as a way to get off the clinical wheel for 2-3 years. You really need to want to do the project you embark on to complete it and write up. Yes your time is more decided by yourself, but you will have other pressures, and you will not necessarily be able to design it around your family. You will be expected to attend lab meetings. Depending on your project, your experiments may need to be run when they need to be run. You go from being pretty damn competent to suddenly having to learn something new, which can be a jolt for people. Salary falling won’t be an issue compared to stopping work completely. You are also likely to need to travel for conferences, and potentially you may need to visit collaborators’ labs abroad. Also many academics are incredible incredibly dedicated and driven, and I have seen instances where the concept of an outside life just does not compute.

And a career in medical academia is no less cut-throat than a career in certain surgical specialities. It isn’t just publish or be damned, but the pressure to be constantly winning grants. All the academics I know are writing late into the night, in early and late on teleconferences. Some of the most driven people that I know, inside and outside medicine. It certainly isn’t an easier ride.

Secnarf · 10/09/2020 02:24

Ooh, also thought I should mention that going through specialist training to CCT isn’t the only way to end up on the specialist register. There is the CESR process. It’s normally used to have overseas experience recognised, but I could see how someone at your level in my speciality could go through this route. You need to demonstrate that you have all the curriculum competencies, so you would need to gather the evidence, and you would probably need someone supportive to help mentor you to signpost you to the opportunities. I have absolutely no idea though if this could work for surgery as I am a medic.

Being a consultant isn’t the be-all-and-end-all, there are locally employed roles (used to be staff grade and then associate specialist, but I think these titles aren’t meant to exist anymore). Needs to be in a good unit so you are not abused, but people are happy doing them, and indeed there are people who have chosen these posts precisely because they love clinical contact and don’t want to have to deal with the management crap. The problem is that stepping off into one of these roles at your stage might be limiting, and you might see training grades that you help train leapfrogging you, unless you could see a path to career progression later. I don’t know enough about this to advise, but just throwing the thought out there.

Apologies for scattergun thinking. It’s late!

turnitonagain · 10/09/2020 02:28

My mum is a consultant. Honestly I have never wished that she had given it up and I’m so grateful for the example she was to me. She is an incredible source of support now that I am a working mother. As long as you prioritise quality time when you have it, you will be fine. I have fond memories of Sunday lunches and helping her do groceries - which I thought was fun and now realise she was utilising me as child labour 😉

PineconeOfDoom · 10/09/2020 02:50

Re-starting in histopath is a well-trodden route for surgical trainees who can’t make surgery compatible with family life.

KatharinaRosalie · 10/09/2020 06:16

I think this should be a permanent sticker on every page here, so people stop with the 'oh just take a little break'.

You can't take a break and go back to surgery later
Not at all. No chance. You quit you quit for good.

TheNavigator · 10/09/2020 08:36

@TheId

SplendidSeptember I think you haven't got my point entirely

Yes your family will be more important than colleagues or a job I am not saying they aren't at all but that's not usually because of decisions you made or didn't make when they were little kids. It's about your relationship through their whole lives. Whether you stayed at home or worked I don't think ultimately determines if they'll be visiting you in that care home.

Lots of people devote many years to bringing up their children full time but still aren't close in later life because of an unfortunate marriage, silly argument or incompatible values. I've seen it loads of times. I am not convinced the early years are the determinant of your whole relationship with your kids and I think it would be crazy to argue otherwise. One factor perhaps but not necessarily the most important.

This is so true, my DH had a touchingly close relationship with his late and much loved father and just has a 'duty' relationship with mother. She was a SAHM then housewife while his dad worked long hours as a senior patner. But he has lovely childhood memories of his father they had a wonderful relationship throughout adulthood.

Whatever your reasons for working or not working, and both are valid choices, it is honestly the same as bottle or breastfeeding when the children are grown up. An issue that looms large at the time but when they are adults you can't tell the difference. It is no determinant of your life long relationship with your children,

GoatCheeseTart · 10/09/2020 09:00

Valid point, Theld - my MIL was a lifelong SAHM, my mother is what MIL would call a full on career woman. I am much closer to my mum than my DH or SILs are to MIL.

Coffeeandbeans · 10/09/2020 09:05

@GoatCheeseTart

Valid point, Theld - my MIL was a lifelong SAHM, my mother is what MIL would call a full on career woman. I am much closer to my mum than my DH or SILs are to MIL.
Not sure this is scientific fact. It’s just causing trouble between SAHP and Working parents. Comes down to personalities. Perhaps your MIL isn’t very nice.
GoatCheeseTart · 10/09/2020 09:12

Coffee of course I am not claiming working mothers have better relationships with their children. Quite the opposite, that being SAHM or WOHM does not determine how good your relationship with your children is.
As Theld said: "Whether you stayed at home or worked I don't think ultimately determines if they'll be visiting you in that care home."

Caelano · 10/09/2020 09:26

Completely agree @GoatCheeseTart

I was born in the 1960s so unsurprisingly my parents had very traditional roles - my mum was a SAHM and only picked up a bit of part time work when we were all in secondary school. Dad had a career and was pretty much sole earner. I get on well with both but tbh am closer to my dad, and the fact that it was always mum at home, then later picking us up from school and giving us tea, while dad was busy at the office, had had no bearing on the quality of my relationships with them. Relationships are far more than just quantifiable hours spent in the same house!

I do understand that things were very different back then with no regulated childcare and limited opportunities for women, and my mum didn’t have the choices she would have now. Which is a shame because she’s just as bright as my dad and I think it would have benefited her to have a ‘wider’ life experience.

I think it’s hugely important to remember that while we should all expect our children to be respectful of what we do for them, it’s wrong to go into parenthood expecting ‘something back’ from them. We’re the ones who choose to have children and the joy of that should be the reward in itself. Not expecting that sacrificing a huge aspect of our life will result in some sort of ‘payback’ through having a closer bond, or happier children.

Hardbackwriter · 10/09/2020 09:33

On the 'who is closer to their kids, SAHMs or WOHMs' - a very silly debate: I always think it's astonishing how many women on MN insist that not working was absolutely essential for their bond with their children, but still say - with no trace of irony - that their DHs, who work long hours, frequently work away, etc, are amazing dads with a brilliant relationship with their kids.

Caelano · 10/09/2020 09:38

Oh I know @Hardbackwriter ... they just can’t see the irony can they? Grin

Hardbackwriter · 10/09/2020 09:42

They normally describe them as 'hands on' dads. I don't know what a 'hands on' mum is - just a mum?

G5000 · 10/09/2020 09:59

I'm a hands on mum, I even packed lunchboxes for DC this morning and I iron my own shirts, DH is so lucky!

Hmm that sounds odd. Oh I know why, no penis.

MsTSwift · 10/09/2020 10:18

They should be making their own packed lunches from 10 onwards!

When I went back to the office was surprised how capable my late primary kids were as they needed to step up - it’s good for them. Slightly horrified at how babied some of my 11 year olds friends are tbh

G5000 · 10/09/2020 10:29

Yes I'm sure they will be, mine are still quite a bit younger than that. And it was a joke.

Kateguide · 10/09/2020 11:27

@Theld that's a lovely post

pepinanalilyplant · 10/09/2020 12:40

@Secnarf I wish someone like were around to give me the advise you've offered here a couple years ago!! I've copied your response and have been reading it... it has certainly offered more clarity than any of the colleagues I've spoken to.

I hope it's not too late for me yet ...