To think you're not allowed to be proud of breastfeeding any more....

[TheatreJunkie84]

NOT a breast is best thread.

I've had the journey from hell. Tongue tie, painful feeds, thrush, not gaining weight, shitty latch, literally everything except low supply....but here I am 3 months in still going, on a combination of formula, pumped milk and boob.

I posted on a local baby group today a picture of me feeding, with a caption about how proud I was to still be going at nearly 3 months despite all the crap...thanking my local group and its peer supporters for their role in keeping me going and encouraging others to seek their help as they were so lovely and wonderful.

It started off well...messages of congrats and other stories of the peer supporters helping out new mums. Suddenly out of nowhere I got called arrogant and told I should have some respect for all the mums that choose to formula feed and I shouldn't throw be throwing it down everyones necks. Before I knew it loads of other mums all joined in, basically saying breastfeeding is nothing to be proud of and I should shut up. Things along the lines of 'big whoop you can feed your baby I cant so this makes you better than me? Piss off.'

I quickly deleted it, feeling really ashamed of myself. I'm on the verge tears now every time I think about it. Am I being unreasonable here? I honestly wanted to give up so many times....but the local group kept me going and if posting about my success can encourage other mums to seek their help then that's surely only a good thing?

I don't know.

@Wolfgirrl

Yes, a previous poster said it was idiotic to keep trying to bf if it was difficult and you were in pain when there is a perfectly viable alternative. Can't be arsed to go back through 36 pages but it's in there. And that's just the explicit rather than all the implied.

For me a lot of my motivation to BF in the earliest days that I was worried about her gut biome, she was a VB baby but had antibiotics. I was really scared of necrotising enterocolitis, in hindsight the risk of this was really low but I was pretty freaked out by how ill she was at birth. BF was overall a healing experience from birth trauma.

After that I was motivated by convenience if I'm honest.

'For women who want to breastfeed and for whatever reason don't achieve it - it is (or can be) a huge wound, and we don't heal that either with judgement or by telling them it doesn't matter because fed is best'

Yes a 'huge wound' for some because they've had it rammed down their throats it's 'best'.

Hcps should say they are 2 methods of infant nutrition. Here are the pros and cons of both, you choose.

@VeniceQueen2004

So no in a word.

Hcps should say they are 2 methods of infant nutrition. Here are the pros and cons of both, you choose.

HCPs need to give clear and objective advice. Personal preference and choice is important but it is ultimately a health decision and advice should reflect that.

That said, some of MNetters should leave it to the midwives. Butting in on a thread about sterilising with a suggestion about 5 baths a day is batshit.

BikeTyson For some premature babies breast milk is really important and formula could be dangerous, that’s the main use for donor milk. I hope it is OK for me to feel happy that my months of expressing milk for the milk bank might have helped some very vulnerable babies, it almost makes up for the doctor telling me that if I was a cow I'd be a prize winner!

@MillyMollyFarmer

Really? Handing baby over to someone, running a bath, getting in, faffing with a pump, then having to get dry & dressed again 5 times a day?!

Compared to washing up a few bottles, sticking them in the steriliser and boiling the kettle once?!

The thing is, it's more or less impossible to quantify the pros and cons of breastfeeding because each experience is so different. For me, for example, the main benefit was rebuilding my bond with my baby - for a lot of women who both bf and ff, that will never have been an issue as they bonded instantly, or may find whichever way they feed they struggle to bond. For some women the convenience of bf may be a plus; but not for me, as for the first 6 mths of her life my dratted baby would only feed happily when side-lying, which was a ruddy nuisance out and about I can tell you. But as a very absent-minded person, it was convenient not to have to remember bottles and powder - so swings and roundabouts there. For some women being able to share feeding with partner/family is a plus of formula; for single women with limited support network, it may make no difference to them there whether their ff or bf as they're doing every bloody feed regardless. So how do you quantify these things? So HCPs just focus on what has been 'slightly dubiously in the Western context) evidenced - the health benefits of breastmilk vs formula milk. And, ffs, the idea breastfeeding makes you lose weight faster (screams into the void at the idea that even when feeding a newborn a woman should always be factoring in her attractiveness). I don't think this approach is helpful.

It needs to be woman-focused, because the mother and baby are a yad and the baby is in no position to make choices for them. The vast majority of women have their baby's interest at hear; and the vast majority of babies benefit most from a confident, fulfilled, happy mother. So women need to be asked how they want to feed, and then all the effort should be on enabling them to feel comfortable with and effectively achieve that end. IMO.

@Wolfgirrl

*@VeniceQueen2004

So no in a word.*

Would you like to expand on why the example I gave doesn't meet your criteria?

[quote VeniceQueen2004]@RoosterPie

But you do see a lot of implications of not having tried hard enough to breast feed with comments such as very few women are medically unable to etc, and the OP’s comments about what she went through to breastfeed are part of a vibe where people think if you just try hard enough and persevere you can breastfeed. I Passionately believe in supporting women who want to breastfeed, but I find that a very damaging message. It doesn’t work for shitloads of women for all sorts of reasons and holding breastfeeding up as an achievement does carry the implication that trying at breastfeeding and it not working is a failure. Hence why it’s emotive.

It is emotive, and I don't like the word failure. It's a LOSS. For women who want to breastfeed and for whatever reason don't achieve it - it is (or can be) a huge wound, and we don't heal that either with judgement or by telling them it doesn't matter because fed is best. Like it didn't help me for people to tell me it doesn't matter how the birth went, the important thing is that you have a healthy baby.

What people (myself included) are trying to do, possibly clumsily, by questioning the biologically incapable of bf statistic - not, I hasten to add, individual stories, that is shite as we are not that woman and do not know her body - is to offer a more hopeful narrative to women out there wanting to breastfeed, struggling to breastfeed, who see the rates in this country and see an insurmountable obstacle for all but the chosen few. Not to tell other women they 'should have tried harder'.

The fact is UK women are NOT biologically different to women in say Canada or Sweden. What we do have is a culture completely inimical to breastfeeding, with totally unrealistic expectations of mothers that make establishing feeding almost impossible, with ridiculous amounts of outdated and misleading information around.

Now I'm well aware the last thing a woman suffering breastfeeding loss needs is to hear someone say that if she'd got the right information/support or whatever she could have continued to feed. I'm well aware there are women who feel they tried absolutely everything, did everything they were told, and it just kicks them in the teeth to hear this and rips open the wound. I don't want to do that to other women, I don't want to cause them pain.

But I also don't want women who are just looking at their options, or who are doing the umpteenth night time feed alone with sore boobs and wondering how on earth they are going to function tomorrow with a busy to-do list, and how their baby can possibly be feeding so much if they're getting enough, etc etc, to believe that she and/or her baby are of the majority who 'can't breastfeed' and stop before she's ready.

I want her to consider that the odds that are stacked against her may be outside of her and her baby, not inside them necessarily. And give her hope she can do what she feels she wants/needs to do. I was lucky and people reached out to me online... So I can absolutely understand what the OP was trying to do. It meant more to me to know someone else had struggled and got through than it would have meant for people to tell me it didn't matter. It mattered to me.

Treading that line is a bugger. It depends on whether one thinks it's more important to honour the feelings of those who have suffered the loss of the breastfeeding they wanted, or to try and prevent more women joining their ranks. And it's flipping hard to know what's right.

But I don't think it is right to tell women it doesn't matter/isn't worth it because there's no significant benefit to the baby - as if her wishes don't come into it. As if there might not be all sorts of reasons quite outwith that she might want to breasteed.[/quote]
Actually I agree for the most part! Especially about it being a difficult line to tread. I don’t think any woman should be told it isn’t worth it to breast feed, I think it’s important the message is portrayed as sensitively as possible. This is why I don’t like “breast is best” - because best is comparative, and it can only be to formula. I think it should be possible to portray the benefits of breastfeeding without bringing best and second best into it, or at least to do a better job than currently.

For my part, I found messages of fed is best to be reassuring, and being told it didn’t matter my baby came out with a horribly bruised and swollen face from the forceps didn’t matter. I understand it had a different effect on you - that’s Part of the problem I suppose. Different messages will work for different women.

Dd is now a teen. I'm just about over being treated like a fucking failure as a mother.
I'm happy for those that managed it and managed it well. But don't rub my face in my failure.
Thanks.

@ancientgran

I hope it is OK for me to feel happy that my months of expressing milk for the milk bank might have helped some very vulnerable babies, it almost makes up for the doctor telling me that if I was a cow I'd be a prize winner!

Good for you! My mum did this too, she had a crazy oversupply with my sister and the midwives bloody loved her - she pumped litres in hospital. Ended up choosing formula for my big sis as she couldn't get the oversupply under control and didn't enjoy feeding (plus she was ill with an emerging autoimmune disease). Didn't even want to try with me, she went straight to the GP for lactation suppression (which was a lot easier to get in those days!) and never looked back. She had total confidence in her choice and never regretted it. 100% supportive of my breastfeeding struggles though, never took my commitment to it as a judgement on her, although she did gently remind me I could stop if I wanted to when I was having a very rough time. If only all women could show each other such support and understanding.

If you feel proud that's fine.

For others it may be no more to be proud of than making the dinner or going to the loo.

@RoosterPie

Breast is best needs to die in a fire. Along with 'take back control', and all other nonsense slogans that mean nothing and do nothing apart from provide a rallying cry to the hard of thinking.

The issue I have with 'fed is best' is it's a meaningless answer to a meaningless challenge - fed is best compared to what, not fed? who is advocating not feeding children? It just gets up my nose because it sounds like such a retort rather than an actually empowering message to women, just like 'breast is best' sounds like a scold. Public health messaging needs to stop treating people like imbeciles who can't understand complete and nuanced ideas, IMHO.

'So HCPs just focus on what has been 'slightly dubiously in the Western context) evidenced - the health benefits of breastmilk vs formula milk. And, ffs, the idea breastfeeding makes you lose weight faster (screams into the void at the idea that even when feeding a newborn a woman should always be factoring in her attractiveness). I don't think this approach is helpful.'

No they say bf gives these benefits, however not all bf so don't feel you are failing if you choose not, ff is a perfectly satisfactory substitute. Mh of the mother is a factor too you know.

Let women choose and respect that choice without feeling the need to persuade or give long winded tales about 'healing'.

@Daphnise

*If you feel proud that's fine.

For others it may be no more to be proud of than making the dinner or going to the loo.*

Funny you should say that actually, the first post-birth poo was a matter of great celebration on my NCT mums group - except for me and the other section lady who didn't obviously have the same trouble going! But by God I cheered those number twos from ladies who'd had their pelvic floors stoved in by babies' heads - they'd bloody worked for it!

@bellinisurge but....why is it up to other women to take control of YOUR emotions?

@GetOffYourHighHorse

Let women choose and respect that choice without feeling the need to persuade or give long winded tales about 'healing'.

If you'd actually read any of my 'longwinded tales about healing' (bitchy much?) you'd see my conclusion is exactly that. You basically just don't want women to talk much about things that affect them, do you? STFU women, nobody cares.

Although Covid-19 / Lockdown has rained on my pregnancy / new baby parade, in another way I’m glad... That I get to do as I like with my boy with comment from nobody. Just me, and DH, using our own judgment.

@DancingCatGif

you're allowed to feel however you want to feel.

Don't expect anyone else to care.

No one ever says they were proud of formula feeding so it does come across as a bit smug.

You fed a baby, it was your choice how you did it so it's a bit whatever really

Exactly! I couldn't breast feed for more than 3 weeks. I felt like crap. Being proud of achieving BF is good for you, but for others to be reminded that they might have got further if they'd have stuck it out might be a bit sad. There will be many obstacles along the way that will make you feel just as rubbish as perhaps the others feel like now. I'd put your comments down to experience and hold back on posting stuff like that in the future. Don't feel bad...move on...and put it down to experience.

Hcps should say they are 2 methods of infant nutrition. Here are the pros and cons of both, you choose.

I think that's the problem - slogans not information.

I had issues bf with first milk was late coming in and second mastitis several times - I was never told how serious those episodes could have been or what warning signs to look out for - I assume as bf support didn't want to fighten us off.

I've had friends mixed feed and been treated like dirt by some bf support people - or told how one formular bottle destroys everything even when in some situations it's needed.

There's often this idea that bf is easy - it sometimes is other times there are minor tweaks that can be hard to find out - as actualy good support can be ridulously hard to find other times there are so many problems that other condiderations like mother well being come in.

I knew about sore nipples and cluster feeds and growth supurts because I did research before hand - but it's frequently not talked about in case it puts mother off.

I wasn't prepared for the near constant pressure to stop BF - though I had friends who FF early or from the off for a variety of reasons and they got comments about that as well. You just can't "win".

There need to be more treating new parents especially mother like actual adults perfectly capable of making best choices for them when given accurate information

Breast milk is best, but breastfeeding isn't always best if you take into account all of the factors that influence feeding; I don't think the fact that is is better on a societal level should be understated though just to appease some people. Although there should be more support for ALL women no matter how they choose or have to feed, and of course there shouldn't be any shame- formula is fab and provides everything a baby needs. Not sure how any of this is OPs responsibility though, how can we accept any way of feeding as great when we cannot talk about BFing?

'You basically just don't want women to talk much about things that affect them, do you? STFU women, nobody cares'

Oh I care, very much so. I care about my friend with pnd feeling she's failed, I care about any new mother feeling they aren't good enough when they have a thriving, content child. I respect other women and feel others should too by allowing them to make their own choices. Give them the information. That's it.

The OP isnt just 'proud', she is also apparently 'trying to help people'. She could help by developing self awareness and empathy.

@GetOffYourHighHorse well yes, OP is meant to have empathy by shutting up about it according to this thread, how pathetic.

I agree with the posters who have used the example of a vaginal birth vs a c section and suggested that someone sharing their pride in this achievement is not likely to be met with the same negativity. Another example could be someone posting a wonderful weight loss achievement on a public site. There will be plenty of people struggling massively to lose weight or who may have failed. Yet nobody seems to suggest the original poster shouldn't have done this to protect the feelings of others. And a believe this is a good comparison, because, as others have said, there are different health outcomes on a national level for high BMIs vs healthy ones. I suppose feelings just run much higher around the subject of infant feeding.