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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think you're not allowed to be proud of breastfeeding any more....

999 replies

TheatreJunkie84 · 25/08/2020 10:32

NOT a breast is best thread.

I've had the journey from hell. Tongue tie, painful feeds, thrush, not gaining weight, shitty latch, literally everything except low supply....but here I am 3 months in still going, on a combination of formula, pumped milk and boob.

I posted on a local baby group today a picture of me feeding, with a caption about how proud I was to still be going at nearly 3 months despite all the crap...thanking my local group and its peer supporters for their role in keeping me going and encouraging others to seek their help as they were so lovely and wonderful.

It started off well...messages of congrats and other stories of the peer supporters helping out new mums. Suddenly out of nowhere I got called arrogant and told I should have some respect for all the mums that choose to formula feed and I shouldn't throw be throwing it down everyones necks. Before I knew it loads of other mums all joined in, basically saying breastfeeding is nothing to be proud of and I should shut up. Things along the lines of 'big whoop you can feed your baby I cant so this makes you better than me? Piss off.'

I quickly deleted it, feeling really ashamed of myself. I'm on the verge tears now every time I think about it. Am I being unreasonable here? I honestly wanted to give up so many times....but the local group kept me going and if posting about my success can encourage other mums to seek their help then that's surely only a good thing?

I don't know.

OP posts:
MangoFeverDream · 26/08/2020 10:52

Absolutely encourage bf in developing countries where they don't have clean water and facilities for sterilising

I’m referring to low-income women in developed countries.

Wolfgirrl · 26/08/2020 10:52

@VeniceQueen2004

Humourless.

BikeTyson · 26/08/2020 10:55

I assume for the NHS to pay a midwife (known to her colleagues as the milk maid) and provide the bottles and pay for the milk it must have some value over formula or they would have just used formula.

For some premature babies breast milk is really important and formula could be dangerous, that’s the main use for donor milk.

RoosterPie · 26/08/2020 10:56

@turnitonagain

There is plenty of pressure to have a vaginal birth and I’ve had comments they I haven’t “really” given birth or that I had the “easy option.”

I’ve literally never said to someone that they can’t be proud of their own delivery because I wasn’t able to have the same. Don’t see much difference to breastfeeding.

I think the difference is that breastfeeding is said to be better for the baby, and being told she hasn’t done what is best for her baby is always going to be more emotive, than a mother’s personal disappointment about her birth experience.

People shouldn’t be making comments like that about caesareans, but whether giving birth naturally is something to be “proud of” is a whole other thread. I think if you don’t need any interventions that’s a whole lot to do with luck.

Thank you to @BikeTyson for pointing out the difference between correlation and causation which seems to be missed by so many on these threads!

GetOffYourHighHorse · 26/08/2020 10:56

@MangoFeverDream

Absolutely encourage bf in developing countries where they don't have clean water and facilities for sterilising

I’m referring to low-income women in developed countries.

Yes sorry I misread I've asked for it to be removed.

That said it is encouraged in deprived areas in this country. Advice though, like every other health advice leaves the decision up to the individual and rightly so. No judgements or pride required

PablosHoney · 26/08/2020 10:59

I think you are right to be proud, it sounds like a hard won journey. It’s a very sensitive subject for some people and they feel (wrongly in this case) criticised by your ability to have done it especially despite obstacles that may have made them decide it wasn’t for them which is in no way wrong either, it’s so individual and the most important thing is mothers health and mind. I’m sorry you got savaged like you did, it sounds awful, do you know any of the people or is it an anonymous forum like this?

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 11:12

I think the difference is that breastfeeding is said to be better for the baby, and being told she hasn’t done what is best for her baby is always going to be more emotive, than a mother’s personal disappointment about her birth experience.

Actually drug-free vaginal birth is touted as being better for the baby, and that is why women have to make the case for an elective c-section rather than just indicating their preference and making an appointment. C-section is surgery for mother and baby, and I had to sign a form saying I consented in the awareness of all the terrible possible outcomes for my baby whilst in agony and exhausted after trying to give birth for days, including the risk she'd be cut and scarred by the scalpel - I was horrified as this had never occurred to me as I'd not planned for a section.

Moreover, if you read about these things (as I did, obsessively, as I imagine a lot of new mothers do) there is now a growing body of evidence for vaginal birth as an important 'seeding' moment for the infant microbiome, as passage through the vaginal tract exposes the baby to some essential bacteria that c-section bypasses. There are even experiments now for giving babies born by c-section 'swabs' with the mother's vaginal juices to replicate this.

So there's plenty for a mum who had a c-section to feel bad about; I found it all out after mine. And yes, just the general impression that you could have tried harder or sodding breathed the baby out of your half-shut cervix or shouldn't have had an induction when recommended because 'baby wasn't ready' or whatever. It absolutely is comparable.

MangoFeverDream · 26/08/2020 11:16

I don’t drive at all because I didn’t need a car to commute or to get around with my then baby now toddler to groups that are within a 20 minute radius of where I live which is the example I’m giving. I’m not criticising them for something I don’t stand by myself

But then do you know whether or not they live within 20 minutes? Or have multiple children using car seats which makes the SUV a sensible choice for them? Or have errands to run afterwards? Believe me, lugging around a toddler seat is no joke, can’t imagine doing that for two.

You (rightly) don’t want your choices to be criticised yet feel entitled to criticise theirs. What if I went on about the environmental impact of formula? Pretty rude, right?

In any case, the point is that you feel free to criticise others about something you care about that they may or may not be able to change. Which I find a little hypocritical in the context of this thread.

PablosHoney · 26/08/2020 11:21

Oh @VeniceQueen2004 Flowers

Tigresswoods · 26/08/2020 11:22

It's such an emotive issue for so many. You're in this little baby bubble right now where stuff like this means a lot to many people.
One day your baby (and their baby) will be all grown up & this stuff will be so irrelevant.

MangoFeverDream · 26/08/2020 11:23

That said it is encouraged in deprived areas in this country. Advice though, like every other health advice leaves the decision up to the individual and rightly so

Absolutely. The WIC programme in the US has been getting good results in promoting BF among low-income women.

Formula is not demonised and is also freely given so recipients can make the best choice
for themselves and their baby. Would be nice to see a targeted programme like that elsewhere.

RoosterPie · 26/08/2020 11:26

@VeniceQueen2004 I had an elective section for my second, and this was after copious research so I am aware of all of that - but that isn’t, in my opinion, the thrust of such comments at all. Not the ones I’ve seen anyway.

In fact when requesting my elective section, risks to the baby were only mentioned in passing. 1% chance of respiratory problems and very likely to be only a short stay on NICU even if so, and I was told cut from a scalpel is surprising in how rarely it happens. It was almost all about the risks to me. Maybe my consultant just didn’t bother to mention “all the terrible possible outcomes” for my baby, but I can absolutely assure you there are plenty such from VB as well.

My baby could have died/suffered brain injury in my first labour but for emergency forceps. I’m not rare in that. There is a very sad number of children who live with hypoxic brain injury due to vaginal birth, who would have been fine with a section. Depends on how you assess risk, but I don’t think vaginal birth was better for my baby at all. I’ll take the risks regarding micro biome and respiratory distress in preference to the small chance of brain injury as the latter is so catastrophic. That’s my choice and I of course defend a woman’s right to make a different choice.

Anyway the point as it relates to this thread is that it is not straightforward to say VB is better than CS for the baby, whereas it is straightforward to say breast milk is better for babies than formula milk (even if the extent of these benefits is up for debate).

5amonSunday · 26/08/2020 11:33

So there's plenty for a mum who had a c-section to feel bad about; I found it all out after mine. And yes, just the general impression that you could have tried harder or sodding breathed the baby out of your half-shut cervix or shouldn't have had an induction when recommended because 'baby wasn't ready' or whatever. It absolutely is comparable.

I'd agree it's comparable, and women should have access to information on both CSs and feeding choices, although there is more of an evidence base that breastfeed is an advantage for long term health. Health decisions should be made with access to facts and balanced against individual needs and risks.

I had a EMCS and my DS's lungs were full of mucus which he kept vomiting and made feeding really difficult. If I'd had a vaginal delivery this wouldn't have happened, but I was only 6cm dilated after 48hrs of my waters breaking and 24hrs on syntoxytocin so it was the safest decision. I wanted a 'natural' birth but it wasn't possible for me. This doesn't mean that women who did manage one shouldn't be proud - it's an achievement.

I think feeding is the same. Lots of women can't breastfeed or choose not to for cogent and valid reasons. This doesn't mean women who do choose to breastfeed shouldn't be proud, especially when they've found it a struggle.

RoosterPie · 26/08/2020 11:41

And yes, just the general impression that you could have tried harder or sodding breathed the baby out of your half-shut cervix or shouldn't have had an induction when recommended because 'baby wasn't ready' or whatever

I agree with this - as I said before it’s a lot of luck what kind of birth you had. I had a VB and it wasn’t remotely an achievement. I was proud to get through it, I was proud to get through my CS.

But you do see a lot of implications of not having tried hard enough to breast feed with comments such as very few women are medically unable to etc, and the OP’s comments about what she went through to breastfeed are part of a vibe where people think if you just try hard enough and persevere you can breastfeed. I Passionately believe in supporting women who want to breastfeed, but I find that a very damaging message. It doesn’t work for shitloads of women for all sorts of reasons and holding breastfeeding up as an achievement does carry the implication that trying at breastfeeding and it not working is a failure. Hence why it’s emotive.

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 11:41

@PablosHoney Bless you xx She was fine, I'm fine, now. It was rough for me, but nothing at all to what some poor families go through. We were lucky.

But I know for a fact that after that tough start, breastfeeding saved my mental health and our bond, even though it was a struggle for us. I needed to feed her to heal; and I needed to heal to bond with her. I never put her in any danger; and I didn't prioritise my needs over hers. We were a dyad; we were a team. She isn't my access point to 'lift the breastfeeding trophy'. FFS. So incredibly offensive some of the things on here.

I'm not anti-section (I'm considering an elective for this pregnancy, so I don't have to risk going through what we did last time). But it's about having choices, and if those choices are taken away or turn out to be an enormous challenge to achieve (be that mode of birth or mode of feeding), people having some respect for the trauma that can cause, instead of being so bloody cold-hearted, judgemental and dismissive.

So I get very vexed when I see people on this thread basically saying bf isn't worth it, either doing it when it's difficult or being proud of if you did. Even as some have said that if you struggled to bf you were basically neglecting/abusing your child by not just giving formula and 'enjoying your baby'. It is so presumptuous to think there is a universal motivation for and experience of breastfeeding, just as it would be for me to assume anything about the experience of all formula feeding mothers. And it pains me to see people reading in malign intent, smugness and selfishness into every breastfeeding mother who doesn't just shut up about and hide in the toilet to feed.

Wolfgirrl · 26/08/2020 12:01

@5amonSunday

I had a EMCS and my DS's lungs were full of mucus which he kept vomiting and made feeding really difficult. If I'd had a vaginal delivery this wouldn't have happened,

It might have! I had a VB and my DD really struggled with mucus. At one point she choked and went purple, I had to jump out of bed and sprint to the nurse's station for help. I'm sure I burst my stitches as they got all infected afterwards 🤢 the point being please do not feel guilty about that, it could have happened if you had had a VB.

Griselda1 · 26/08/2020 12:02

I regard feeding my babies myself as one of my life achievements, that might sound ridiculous but I do. Feel proud of yourself and as another poster said don't look to others to validate your experience.

Wolfgirrl · 26/08/2020 12:03

But you do see a lot of implications of not having tried hard enough to breast feed with comments such as very few women are medically unable to etc,

I've seen lots of posts by ladies on MN who have found bfing really tough, given it their best but decided to switch to bottle. They post asking for help with sterilising etc and they get so many replies saying, 'But before giving up did you try x y z...?' Including things like expressing in the bath. I mean seriously, who has time to run a bath and express 5 times a day with a newborn? 🙄

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 12:06

@RoosterPie

But you do see a lot of implications of not having tried hard enough to breast feed with comments such as very few women are medically unable to etc, and the OP’s comments about what she went through to breastfeed are part of a vibe where people think if you just try hard enough and persevere you can breastfeed. I Passionately believe in supporting women who want to breastfeed, but I find that a very damaging message. It doesn’t work for shitloads of women for all sorts of reasons and holding breastfeeding up as an achievement does carry the implication that trying at breastfeeding and it not working is a failure. Hence why it’s emotive.

It is emotive, and I don't like the word failure. It's a LOSS. For women who want to breastfeed and for whatever reason don't achieve it - it is (or can be) a huge wound, and we don't heal that either with judgement or by telling them it doesn't matter because fed is best. Like it didn't help me for people to tell me it doesn't matter how the birth went, the important thing is that you have a healthy baby.

What people (myself included) are trying to do, possibly clumsily, by questioning the biologically incapable of bf statistic - not, I hasten to add, individual stories, that is shite as we are not that woman and do not know her body - is to offer a more hopeful narrative to women out there wanting to breastfeed, struggling to breastfeed, who see the rates in this country and see an insurmountable obstacle for all but the chosen few. Not to tell other women they 'should have tried harder'.

The fact is UK women are NOT biologically different to women in say Canada or Sweden. What we do have is a culture completely inimical to breastfeeding, with totally unrealistic expectations of mothers that make establishing feeding almost impossible, with ridiculous amounts of outdated and misleading information around.

Now I'm well aware the last thing a woman suffering breastfeeding loss needs is to hear someone say that if she'd got the right information/support or whatever she could have continued to feed. I'm well aware there are women who feel they tried absolutely everything, did everything they were told, and it just kicks them in the teeth to hear this and rips open the wound. I don't want to do that to other women, I don't want to cause them pain.

But I also don't want women who are just looking at their options, or who are doing the umpteenth night time feed alone with sore boobs and wondering how on earth they are going to function tomorrow with a busy to-do list, and how their baby can possibly be feeding so much if they're getting enough, etc etc, to believe that she and/or her baby are of the majority who 'can't breastfeed' and stop before she's ready.

I want her to consider that the odds that are stacked against her may be outside of her and her baby, not inside them necessarily. And give her hope she can do what she feels she wants/needs to do. I was lucky and people reached out to me online... So I can absolutely understand what the OP was trying to do. It meant more to me to know someone else had struggled and got through than it would have meant for people to tell me it didn't matter. It mattered to me.

Treading that line is a bugger. It depends on whether one thinks it's more important to honour the feelings of those who have suffered the loss of the breastfeeding they wanted, or to try and prevent more women joining their ranks. And it's flipping hard to know what's right.

But I don't think it is right to tell women it doesn't matter/isn't worth it because there's no significant benefit to the baby - as if her wishes don't come into it. As if there might not be all sorts of reasons quite outwith that she might want to breasteed.

GetOffYourHighHorse · 26/08/2020 12:09

'I needed to feed her to heal; and I needed to heal to bond with her. I never put her in any danger; and I didn't prioritise my needs over hers. We were a dyad; we were a team'

Lovely and yes feel proud of yourself if you like. The point is, if someone on sm said 'proud of my vaginal drug free delivery!' You might equally think well that's a bit insensitive to those who have sections. Cant we all just be pleased with ourselves without seeking pats on the head?

Mind people do post all kinds of 'look at me!' crap on sm so we shouldn't be surprised.

MillyMollyFarmer · 26/08/2020 12:11

I mean seriously, who has time to run a bath and express 5 times a day with a newborn?

Plenty do it. It’s about as much time as buying formula, prepping bottles etc it all takes time.

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 12:12

@5amonSunday

Sounds like we had matching births! Aaaargh. I was announcing vociferously all the way to the recovery ward I'd never be doing this again, and everyone from the surgeon to the porter rolled their eyes and said 'we've heard that one before!' was affronted. I'm now 3 months gone with baby 2 Grin and hoping to heaven for a better run at things this time around! x

VeniceQueen2004 · 26/08/2020 12:14

@GetOffYourHighHorse

Lovely and yes feel proud of yourself if you like. The point is, if someone on sm said 'proud of my vaginal drug free delivery!' You might equally think well that's a bit insensitive to those who have sections. Cant we all just be pleased with ourselves without seeking pats on the head?

Actually I really wouldn't! I'd be jealous as sin, obviously. But i wouldn't expect them to silence their happiness and achievement for my feelings. Other women having unwanted sections too does NOT make me feel better; so why would a woman getting the birth she wants make me fee worse?

Wolfgirrl · 26/08/2020 12:15

I don't think it is right to tell women it doesn't matter/isn't worth it because there's no significant benefit to the baby - as if her wishes don't come into it.

Did anyone actually say this?