To expect graduate to get a job whilst applying for ‘the perfect’ job?

[Rosehip345]

Please settle a disagreement between myself and my brother.

DN back from uni having graduated and done well in chosen (and fairly select and over subscribed) field.
Her plan with DB’s approval is to live at home for a year whilst applying for jobs, so far she has had three interviews and not got any.
They both disagree with me that she should get any job or an internship etc in the interim whilst continuing to apply for ‘the perfect job’.

My kids are very young so I don’t have any experience of this yet but I’d imagine I’d be telling them to get some life experience and more relevant experience around the subject whilst still applying, surely that’d make them seem more appealing than just staying at home doing nothing for year?

Not buying that they asked your opinion, as your kids are so young. No point in asking for your own kids’ sake, they’re a long way off from jobs. It’s a KYBO from me.

Big 4 recruiter here. We always ask graduates what they've done other than study, it's the only way to gauge existing ability to handle real life situations.

In my experience it was those whose parents could support them when they did internships/volunteering after leaving university who ended up with ‘proper’ graduate jobs and have gone on to have ‘good’ careers. Unfortunately the generic jobs that lots of us needed to pay our way really didn’t count for much against people who could afford to undertake relevant unpaid work placements.

So, I would definitely prioritise getting relevant experience even if unpaid over just ‘any job’. It’s nice to see recruitment people saying they like to see the ‘work ethic’ of working in any role but I have never seen that borne out in an interview against someone who has volunteered/interned in a specific area.

I also think if your DN worked while at uni/did a lot of organising for societies etc then that will give her something to talk about at interview.

It's only August. If she is a new graduate, she was presumably studying up to 2 months ago. So in only two months of job hunting she has has three interviews. That is pretty good going. If she is still sitting at home in another few months´ time, then yes, maybe she needs to cast her net wider, but give her a break. If her parents are happy to finance her for a few months while she aims at finding her ideal job, then I think that is fine. If you want to give some advice to your brother, I would rather say that he needs to agree on a cut off date for this with her, after which she will start applying more widely.

I have 2 DS who did not leave Uni with a job lined up.
One went back to his holiday job in a kitchen part time, while spending the rest of the time job hunting. At his interview for his training scheme, the interviewers were very interested in what he had learnt about the restaurant business while working in the kitchen. He got the job originally because he spotted that quite a lot of bar and cafe jobs wanted a Food Hygeine Certificates, so took himself off to do the training. A head chef was impressed with his initiative and offered him a job at the end of the day. Always had a job to go back to when he wanted it.
The other couldn't get paid work, but volunteered 2 days a week for a charity, while job searching. Previously worked there one morning a week while doing MA. Although we were supporting him, we insisted he did something to enhance his cv.

@squeaver

She's mad not to have taken up the internship. In the same field, so she'd have actual, recent experience in the right area?? THAT'S cv gold.

I graduated in a recession and we all got whatever jobs we could. This time around's way worse.

I also graduated during recession. You aren’t the one being “ridiculous and naive”.

I took a year to apply for jobs whilst taking internships, work experience and managing to pick up a very small amount of work freelance. I was fortunate enough to be supported with free accommodation to enable me to do this but had to really scrape by to feed myself and get myself around (London, public transport, not living with parents). Internships, work experience and minimal freelance were far more valuable than a minimum wage job would have been for my chosen field, so I don't agree that graduate should necessarily take 'any' job if parents are willing to support them financially to do something of more long-term benefit. Certainly don't think graduate should be sitting around doing job applications and nothing else though!

If I hadn't have had this experience I would have struggled to answer some of the competency based questions in the graduate interviews.

This.

I do graduate recruitment and it is so so so much easier to answer “can you give an example of a time when you suggested a new idea and had to overcome opposition to implement it” if you have had a job in Tescos or your local kitchen shop or an office than if you have just had your academic experience.

Obviously this year it is difficult to get any job but volunteering would also work really well.

Just no more “well - we were doing our final group project and Lizzie said.... and I said.... and I was right!” Please. Seriously - I’ve done university projects. Every bugger in the company has done a university project. My own was dull enough. I don’t want to hear about someone else’s. And definitely not about 6 someone else’s in one (very very long!) day. I want to hear about improving the computer programme to design bedroom furniture or re-arranging the clothing layout so that buggies didn’t keep getting caught up in the t-shirts (they were the one who had to keep picking up and re-hanging the t-shirts). That is new and fun and interesting.

Each vacancy has around 1000 applications at the moment.

I'd say it is a balance - she needs time to really ensure her applications are great, tailored to the role, and for her to practice for interviews, but at the same time, having nothing on her CV for months or years will look bad. An internship in the right area is ideal as a starting point, as most internships offer a lot of the interns a full time role at the end if they perform well. Otherwise in the meantime I would encourage part-time work or volunteering for 2-3 days a week then she can use the rest of her time to apply for jobs. Also much more likely to keep her motivated applying for jobs if she doesn't have seemingly endless amounts of time in which to do so.

I screen CVs for a major top 5 graduate employer and we give higher scores to people who have done internships, 6 weeks + work experience, or who have worked throughout holidays/studies even in McDonalds as it shows a good work ethic. We couldn't care less about backpacking or other typical graduate pursuits, in contrast...

I agree rushing into a full time role is not necessarily the best approach as then you get stuck there or lose energy and motivation to apply elsewhere in your spare time, but that is unlikely in this market.

@PlanDeRaccordement

If there are mitigating circumstances (single parent, carer, etc) I would expect them to have the emotional intelligence and common sense to say so and then it would be taken into account. If they don't have the EQ or common sense to do so then I'm afraid they'd be ditched.

Even though it is proven that employers discriminate AGAINST hiring single parents, carers, and those with disabilities you expect them to volunteer that information to a recruiter? So it’s dammed if you don’t, damned if you do.

No, it's don't be bloody ridiculous and expect people to be mind readers.

If you have 1,000 people apply per role and are recruiting for 10 graduates do you really think we have the time to read 10,000 CVs and then invite them ALL to interview in case they have mitigating circumstances that we're not aware of because they've chosen to rely on telepathy?

@Ellamiss

She will have graduated within the last month and now she is getting ripped apart on a chat forum. Internships for 12k should be made illegal, they are elitist and unfair.

I guess it depends how many hours it is part time. If it were half the normal working hours then that's 24k pro rata and not unreasonable at all

Your instincts are right. Trust them

@Ellamiss

She will have graduated within the last month and now she is getting ripped apart on a chat forum. Internships for 12k should be made illegal, they are elitist and unfair.

It's a part time internship. If it's three days a week that's not bad money.

YANBU, but whilst daddy is prepared to allow a grown up to relinquish any responsibility, it's their lookout.

Did they ask you for your opinion? If not, I’d pipe down if I were you.

OP, I'm a bit confused on the current state of play.

Is she currently applying for the £12k internship, and you're suggesting a part-time job alongside that? Depending on the sector, the 'part-time' internship may not be genuinely part-time, so she might need to be available to work much longer hours to impress, etc. so she can get the experience, references, connections, etc. to get her coveted perfect job.

Well the good thing is that she's not your daughter and it's not your business. They've both told you they don't agree with you (probably because they're too polite just to say fuck off and mind your own) so are you planning to search for some more ammunition here to raise this with them again? That's going to harm your relationship with both of them and it will come across as you being annoyed or somehow jealous that she's being 'allowed' to not work for a year instead of taking on some miserable dead-end job (which might not even be an option, even those jobs are hard to come by now).

@GruffaIo

OP, I'm a bit confused on the current state of play.

Is she currently applying for the £12k internship, and you're suggesting a part-time job alongside that? Depending on the sector, the 'part-time' internship may not be genuinely part-time, so she might need to be available to work much longer hours to impress, etc. so she can get the experience, references, connections, etc. to get her coveted perfect job.

Agreed, it’s very rare that they are genuinely part time. Vanishingly so.

I can't believe that she's turned down a relevant apprenticeship! If she's wanting to go into a highly competitive field, that's the sort of thing that will make her stand out.

Otherwise, I graduated in the 2010 recession and obviously struggled to find a graduate job (it took me 6 months in the end). I was firing off applications to both graduate and local, minimum wage jobs equally.

It took me 5 months to find a local job, I was still on my probation period so only required a week's notice when I quit for my graduate job. I was doing a lot of hours, but it didn't detract from applying for other jobs - there are only so many hours in the day that you can do that anyway, especially if the jobs are thin on the ground.

I don't think it's entirely clear cut to be honest. Depending on the field that she's trying to get in to of course.

My DP did a degree in a fairly niche field, no jobs on graduating so got a job in a shop. But then the jobs he actually wanted didn't want him - he was seen as being out of the loop so to speak. He then moved to a job that was on the periphieries of the field he now works in, and suddenly he was getting interviews and opportunities that had previously not been there.

Finding something; lower paid, temp contract, only vaguely related to her chosen career may be a better bet than taking anything (say working at Asdas) and finding herself too far removed from the "right" world.

They asked my opinion and I gave it, fair enough they disagreed

Are they generally argumentative?

It seems odd that they asked for your opinion if they've already decided what they're going to do and have strong views about it, so I'd stay out of it as it sounds like someone just wants an argument!

It's their choice so I'd just leave them to it, OP.

in case they have mitigating circumstances that we're not aware of because they've chosen to rely on telepathy?

There is a school of thought that says that if eg you want a job as an engineer, you don't flip burgers as a stop-gap because it's not the right level job.

Personally I think that's nonsense, and any work experience is valid. I agree with you OP, your DN should do more than make applications. However, it might not be that easy, it's not as if there are loads of jobs out there at the moment.