To expect graduate to get a job whilst applying for ‘the perfect’ job?

[Rosehip345]

Please settle a disagreement between myself and my brother.

DN back from uni having graduated and done well in chosen (and fairly select and over subscribed) field.
Her plan with DB’s approval is to live at home for a year whilst applying for jobs, so far she has had three interviews and not got any.
They both disagree with me that she should get any job or an internship etc in the interim whilst continuing to apply for ‘the perfect job’.

My kids are very young so I don’t have any experience of this yet but I’d imagine I’d be telling them to get some life experience and more relevant experience around the subject whilst still applying, surely that’d make them seem more appealing than just staying at home doing nothing for year?

As a recruiter I’d have a very dim view of someone doing this and not working. I don’t care how smart a grad is, I’m looking for someone with work experience. A bit of can do about them, even if it’s just casual work or volunteering. Having a degree tells me nothing about them.

If a young graduate is aiming for career in the city in either law or finance the experience working in a supermarket after getting a degree rather than part time job on holiday etc will not be considered positive. It is a highly competitive environment and the young person would be considered not ambitious enough for these kind of jobs

What a load of utter bullshit. I'm a partner in a City law firm and part of the panel of trainee recruitment. In my youth I also did shop/bar/admin work to pay the bills. Didn't stop me succeeding in my chosen career! When recruiting we actively look for people who aren't afraid to graft when it's required. A lot of the work of a trainee solicitor is quite tedious (bundling docs, running errands, correcting MI spreadsheets) and we only want people who can muck in. Sitting in your arse because mummy and daddy think you're too special to mix with the hoi polloi quickly condemns your c.v. to the bin!

Anyone reading this panicking please know that Iwonder08 is either talking absolute bullshit or is basing things off their extremely narrow experience.

If a young graduate is aiming for career in the city in either law or finance the experience working in a supermarket after getting a degree rather than part time job on holiday etc will not be considered positive. It is a highly competitive environment and the young person would be considered not ambitious enough for these kind of jobs.
If his/her degree is in a serious science field it would be even worse.
I mentioned in my post that the above is applicable only to a very academic person with a degree from a respectable university. I am not talking about all the graduates

So what you are saying is if you are poor but very bright and do manage to get yourself into a top university then don’t bother taking the place as you won’t be able to live for a year after university without earnings because if you take a minimum wage job to keep a roof over your head then you are going to be discriminated against when you come to getting a job.

This thread seems to suggest if you don’t have a mummy or a daddy who is willing and able to provide for you for a year after university then don’t bother going because you won’t be able to get a job as you had to work in McDonalds to pay the rent and if you do send a C.V. off it will end up in the bin.

Quite depressing for those that are at university or those that have left and are trying to keep a roof over their heads whilst applying for their dream job.

[quote Iwonder08]@fuckwitMcGee..have nothing to do with being a snob, just being practical.
If a young graduate is aiming for career in the city in either law or finance the experience working in a supermarket after getting a degree rather than part time job on holiday etc will not be considered positive. It is a highly competitive environment and the young person would be considered not ambitious enough for these kind of jobs.
If his/her degree is in a serious science field it would be even worse.
I mentioned in my post that the above is applicable only to a very academic person with a degree from a respectable university. I am not talking about all the graduates[/quote]
The City is becoming very aware of diversity and very realistic about the fact that you maximise the pool of talent by recognising that some young people cannot afford the luxury of unpaid internships nor not working for 6 months.

www.thelordmayorsappeal.org/library/_an_inclusive_city/poi_programme_may_2020.pdf

I agree wit you but it’s not your business. While waiting for my first “proper” Job (which wasn’t well paid at all but in the field I wanted to work in) I worked as a temp admin person in the local council. Wasn’t exactly amazing but I got some money in (useful as the first “proper” job was in London) and v useful experience. Not so much of the actual job but working in a team, office environment etc. And I lived at home (parents charged small amount of rent) so financially it totally made sense.

@honeylulu

If a young graduate is aiming for career in the city in either law or finance the experience working in a supermarket after getting a degree rather than part time job on holiday etc will not be considered positive. It is a highly competitive environment and the young person would be considered not ambitious enough for these kind of jobs

What a load of utter bullshit. I'm a partner in a City law firm and part of the panel of trainee recruitment. In my youth I also did shop/bar/admin work to pay the bills. Didn't stop me succeeding in my chosen career! When recruiting we actively look for people who aren't afraid to graft when it's required. A lot of the work of a trainee solicitor is quite tedious (bundling docs, running errands, correcting MI spreadsheets) and we only want people who can muck in. Sitting in your arse because mummy and daddy think you're too special to mix with the hoi polloi quickly condemns your c.v. to the bin!

I agree, this is utter bullshit.

This thread seems to suggest if you don’t have a mummy or a daddy who is willing and able to provide for you for a year after university then don’t bother going because you won’t be able to get a job as you had to work in McDonalds to pay the rent and if you do send a C.V. off it will end up in the bin.

This thread is made of up random people on the internet, some of whom have fuck all idea - they're not experts, so please take their 'advice' with a pinch of salt.

It's absolute bollocks that recruiters in city law, etc aren't aware of access issues when it comes to diversity - obviously there's still lots of work to do but they know that and have been making moves to address these issues for several years now.

@LonginesPrime

She'd be off her head not to take the internship in the current climate.

It's part-time and she'd have to move to London and cover her own living costs.

I don't think it's madness not to want to do that - it's one thing her parents letting her live at home rent free if they're happy with that, but funding separate accommodation in London is a completely different situation.

If the internship is part time, she will also be able to do something on the side to pick up extra cash. If she finds cheap digs, adds some other earnings to the £12k, plus her parents chip in whatever it would have cost them to have her live at home (as this will be costing them money) - it's doable.

No, she won't be living the high life, but after 6-12 months she will be vastly more attractive to employers than someone who hasn't done a relevant internship in the industry. She needs to look to the long term, and an offer in the hand is worth two in the bush (particularly given the current recession)!

Don't get me wrong, I think it's appalling that companies can get away with paying such low wages to interns. It reduces social mobility and diversity etc., it's not good. But it's the best option available to her right now.

I'd have advised her to take it, and do whatever is needed to make it work financially.

Sure @ReceptacleForTheRespectable - I'm not saying it's not doable, but I also don't think she'd be "off her head" not to do it as there are loads of other personal factors to consider outside of the current climate.

It's one thing to say she'd be mad not to take a part-time internship which she could commute to from home and where everything else remains the same, as that's just 'internship vs no internship'.

But when there are so many other aspects of her life that would need to change significantly in order for her to do the internship, I don't think she'd be mad not to jump at the chance as it's a much more complex and personal decision.

Longines - There is a lot of evidence that young people who graduate in a recession suffer worse career prospects, and this impacts their earnings over their entire careers.

Students graduating this summer are entering a terrible job market - the worst for a very long time. Because of that. I would advise anyone graduating now to snap up an opportunity like that because there will so few of them this year. It's not like other years where people might have the luxury of having a number of good options.

DS2 graduated last year and came home to live while looking for his grad career. He applied for local jobs at the same time as "proper" jobs.
Got a job in a small supermarket. It gave him a huge amount of useful experience to use in job applications. They also did in house training in customer service, health and safety and so on which all came in useful.
It took him 9 months to secure a graduate role but he was eventually successful in two - civil service fast stream and an NHS grad scheme (which he took).
The supermarket job gave him an income, some useful skills and an escape from the boredom of living at home while all his friends had moved on.

Its not even just about earning anything until you can get a decent income but all the learning that comes with any job. I'm amazed how much my kids learn about various matters just working PT in a supermarket, gaining an understanding of hierarchy, learning about different management style, health and safety, customer care, and self-discipline amongst others.

Someone who opt to work any job, gets an excellent reference from it and didn't even need to actually work is someone I would consider more likely to have gained a good work ethic.

Sorry if I offended some people. I am not giving a career advise, my comment is based on my personal 20 years experience in the City. It is fairly common for students in top universities to try and secure internship while still at uni. Yes, internship is not going to pay for all the bills, but it is temporary and allows people to build experience and useful connections in the field. It shouldn't come as a shock and should be planned accordingly. A lot of people I know reminiscent of how they worked in fast food chains while studying.. Not a lot chose to work there for a year or two instead of doing menial jobs in their chosen industry.
It is not impossible, but more difficult to apply yourself properly for internship or job search while working in parallel. If parents (and it sounds like OP's brother is one of them) can afford to support their academic child to concentrate on that then in my opinion they should.
In terms of discriminating people from different background whose parents can't afford it.. These children tend to be more driven than everyone else and go extra mile to secure entry level jobs in their chosen industry.

Actually what happens is that many children from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds don’t apply in the first place. That’s why City firms and the Livery Companies are running programmes with schools in disadvantaged areas.

@dontdisturbmenow

Its not even just about earning anything until you can get a decent income but all the learning that comes with any job. I'm amazed how much my kids learn about various matters just working PT in a supermarket, gaining an understanding of hierarchy, learning about different management style, health and safety, customer care, and self-discipline amongst others.

Someone who opt to work any job, gets an excellent reference from it and didn't even need to actually work is someone I would consider more likely to have gained a good work ethic.

This was my friends point years ago when she was encouraging my son, her godson, to get a part time job.

She said it gave her sons an extra level of maturity and confidence, holding down and doing well in their part time jobs.

Also, an invaluable lesson in how hard some people work for nominal pay.
She felt it had been an extra motivator.

I'm not for a second suggesting this would be an across the board application, but she definitely felt in the event that she was looking for a general entry level position immediately post graduate, this helped. She said as a recruiter at that time, she wasn't alone in her view.

It is not impossible, but more difficult to apply yourself properly for internship or job search while working in parallel
So surely, for those who haven't managed to secure an internship at Uni, hence reducing their options, the way to distinguish yourself is to work AND apply for internships?

Why isn't it hard to apply? Duty a job in the City will expect dedicated people prepared to work long hours. How best to demonstrate such commitment by doing both work and applications at the same time?

I really don't get the logic that says you are better off at home with mum and dad, applyingng for the few opportunities that are coming at the moment.

It is not impossible, but more difficult to apply yourself properly for internship or job search while working in parallel

It develops time management skills and focus and concentration.
And for a lot of people it's just actually a necessity; for those of us who didn't rely on parents to feed and house us after uni, it's just how things are. Frankly if I were an employer I'd take a very dim view of any applicant who I thought couldn't work and make job apps at the same time.

It is not impossible, but more difficult to apply yourself properly for internship or job search while working in parallel
How many hours in the day would you expect to spend on applying for internships or jobs? It's quite a tedious process, DS managed to spend time on it each day while working at a supermarket. He was lucky that his job was flexible and he could swap shifts if he had interviews.

My daughter gained massively from her McJob, dealing with difficult customers and the resilience that developed. Being flexible and working extra shifts. Putting the hours in because they were short staffed ...all useful in interviews etc.

Yabu, have you seen the job market atm? Ds and his friend both graduated last year, neither have found even temp jobs. Several others opted to do postgrad study.

Ds has submitted over 100 applications most related to his degree but many not. However even local cafe jobs and entry level are requesting a year's relevant experience at a minimum. Retail jobs are for an early start or late finish and we have a limited bus service. Supermarkets wanting extra staff for lockdown never replied. Most of the grad schemes and internships were eventually cancelled this year, but not before he had jumped through several hoops to get to the next stage. More specialist roles are getting over 300 applicants and are often requiring research reports or additional statements, all of which have to be tailored and take time. He was fortunate to secure a volunteer role pre lockdown which has kept him working in the meantime and a chance to make contacts and gain transferrable skills.

The actual answer OP is that it depends.

You have given no indication of the degree she did and whether while study for that degree she did part-time work, had summer jobs, volunteered, had a named role in a university society and did other work experience.

Whether my nephews, nieces and younger friends did any job while searching for permanent jobs really depended on the degree they did.

Those with more scientific and technical degrees actually spend their time while at university doing all the things listed above. So when they started looking for permanent jobs they didn't do any form of work. It took them around 6 months to get a job.

Those who did less scientific and technical degrees did part-time work until they found a job. It took them up to a year to get into a job where they could launch their careers.

I have older siblings plus friends and acquaintances who graduated in different recessions and also friends who were made redundant after a first job in a recession. They either had to do any job to live or do a postgraduate course.

Yes, LIZS, I have posted a few times that people on here seem totally out of touch. One person suggested travelling. travelling !!!!! Another mentioned gigs. Gigs!!!!

If there are any internships running at the moment I’d be surprised. Every single one of ds’s friends have had theirs cancelled (including ds). Graduate schemes too. Some have been postponed but others have just been summarily axed with no plans to resume. Most office-type jobs are wfh at the moment so what are they supposed to do with a bunch of new employees?

Posters might not have noticed, but there are no events running this year requiring casual staff. Pubs etc seem to be fully staffed with existing employees, and the usual churn isn’t happening as no one is travelling/going on holiday. Volunteering? Er, where? Local charities/care homes etc all closed to outsiders.

@LIZS

Yabu, have you seen the job market atm? Ds and his friend both graduated last year, neither have found even temp jobs. Several others opted to do postgrad study.

Ds has submitted over 100 applications most related to his degree but many not. However even local cafe jobs and entry level are requesting a year's relevant experience at a minimum. Retail jobs are for an early start or late finish and we have a limited bus service. Supermarkets wanting extra staff for lockdown never replied. Most of the grad schemes and internships were eventually cancelled this year, but not before he had jumped through several hoops to get to the next stage. More specialist roles are getting over 300 applicants and are often requiring research reports or additional statements, all of which have to be tailored and take time. He was fortunate to secure a volunteer role pre lockdown which has kept him working in the meantime and a chance to make contacts and gain transferrable skills.

Except the niece was actually offered an internship, and turned it down?

Under normal circumstances, pre covid, I would expect a graduate to find a job, any job. If no job, volunteer and / or complete some courses.

This year is not the norm. However, it is not an excuse to do nothing !