Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

That is one more chance than I would allow. If you do this, record him on your phone and call the police. Ask your daughters for permission to do so before going into this situation first and then get that arsehole punished legally.

I think others have given far better advice than I could.
I just wanted to add that it’s really important for your daughters to know that they do not have to hug anyone if they do not want to.

OMG I missed the bit about the counselling! You had an appalling counsellor there. Forgiveness is only beneficial if it actually brings you healing and closure - not if it means letting an evil person off the hook completely.

I would not take my kids to see him. I'd would not send any photos of them to either parent.
Yes you do have a choice. You're an adult. Do what is right by your children.

OP, you must (as you have realised) protect your daughters from this abusive man, from whom you were not protected.

I'm adfraid you also need to be able to let go of your mother. She was probably a solace and a haven for you amid the abuse, but she made you live in the abuse in the first place. You have gone to great lengths to continue your relationship around the situation your father imposes, but you cannot, ultimately, take on her responsibility for her, and if she will not act to protect herself and her grandchildren, she will need to remain in her current life. I understand she is afraid, and I understand you and she have a bond, a community of fear and suffering which holds you together, but you are going to need to look her terrible failure as a mother and grandmother in the face. What she wants is to remain in her 'comfort' zone (which obviously can't be all that comfortable, but it seems, to her, preferable to making the break) while you and her 'light of her life' grandchildren continue to attend her. You are at the point where you know you cannot do this - you literally cannot - it is a question of survival. You will need to make clear to your mother that you cannot ever again risk your daughters (or indeed yourself, frankly) coming into contact with your father, and that it is her decision as to whether that also means virtually no contact with her. And you are going to need to acknowledge what she, also, has done to you, and grieve for yourself. I think you will need proper, supportive therapy, from someone who is unshakeably on your 'side'.

If she gives him one more chance then he'll just make sure she doesn't hear him saying anything.

I would send a letter to your mum via her sister. I'd say she was welcome any time (I wouldn't say she was welcome to live with you - that's a huge decision and one I think you'd regret) and that if she wanted a day out you'd meet her in town. I'd say that I never wanted to see my dad again and give her all the reasons why.

What a horrible situation you’re in! I really feel for you, but you must not in any circumstances let your children be around this man again. It’s a shame for your mum, but if you’re honest with her it may be the wake up call she needs to finally leave him.

Good decision, @Friendsoftheearth

As for this:

I saw a counsellor but she told me to forgive my parents and see them because not seeing them was upsetting me so much! How on earth do you find one that understands this kind of family dynamic?

Sounds like that counsellor was projecting her own fucked-up issues onto you. Equally there are counsellors who are poorly trained and had sheltered lives, so can't hear what their own clients are really telling them underneath the minimising and downplaying that abused children learn to adopt as a life strategy.

Meanwhile, watch your mum doesn't start guilt-tripping your daughters, via phone, cards etc.

Why can’t you put your big girl pants on and call him out on everything he says, don’t get caught into silly debates about hurtful versus sensitivity. Show your girls how they should stand up to creepy men.

Ie) what do you mean shapely kegs, wtf are doing even looking at their leg shapes, don’t you know how inappropriate it is for a grandfather to comments on his granddaughters leg shape. End of discussion, no further comment to his crazy excuses.

You comment on their skin, have you looked in the Mirror lately and seen how your skin has aged and wrinkled lately, just as it is not appropriate for them to comment on your old skin, it’s not appropriate for you to comment on their teenage skin. Everyone gets teenage spots, you did too if you can remember that far back.

Dressed provocatively, tgat is a standard pair of shorts and if you see them as anything other than that then perhaps you need to reassess why and consider if you are having inappropriate thoughts.

Call out each and every nasty/inappropriate comment And say it for what it is, his inappropriateness. Put it all back on him, take no shit, don’t get into any defensive conversation you have nothing to defend.

Show your girls how to stand up to bullies and explain to them that you all go to see your mum who loves and cares for you all dearly and unfortunately you can’t help who she lives with.

Also why can’t you book a treat fir your mum like an afternoon tea out and tell your Dad he would hate it as too girly so just you are going or book her a nail session and disappear all afternoon. Get her out of the house, any excuse, you’re all going for a girly shop, this is perfectly normal and easy since you have girls. Find an excuse every time and just tell him that you enjoy treating your mum.

Come on be brave don’t let him win.

@Friendsoftheearth

Can you not pick your mum up from outside her house and bring her to yours/take her out somewhere to spend time with you and your DC's?

Your father's clearly a vile narcissist.The problem is your mum comes from a generation where women were taught you stick with your husband no matter what and abuse of any kind is swept under the carpet.I'm going to hazard a guess that your father doesn't lift a finger around the house and treats your mum as his personal doormat.

His disgusting comments about your DD's leave me worried he might have potentially indulged in inappropriate behaviour with young women and girls;he sounds like the sort of self entitled wanker that would be unfaithful to your mum.

Think of him less as a father and more of a sperm doner,he doesn't deserve any consideration from you and you deserve to protect yourself and your DC's from him.

The counsellor who told you to forgive and see your parents again doesn't have to subject themselves to that, jus you and your daughters. It would be quite in order for you to get in touch with them to say that you did as they suggested and now your daughters have been subjected to abuse, making it clear that you are now expecting anything more from the counsellor, but letting them know that their advice put two girls under 18 in harm's way.
Also, there is a bit difference between forgiving someone and letting them continue to do harm. If you forgave someone for hitting you, that doesn't mean that the forgiveness should extend to you bringing someone else to them to hit. Even the bit about turning the other cheek in the Bible? A person only has two. You have given your father the second chance and he "hit you on the other cheek" as it were.
Anyone who tried to guilt you into contact again, or worse still tries to guilt your daughters, should be treated with extreme suspicion. You have offered your mother so much protection in response to her failing to protect you and she hasn't taken you up on it. Don't let anyone guilt you about that either.

I also meant to say, you'd probably find this book helpful:

When Dad Hurts Mom, by Lundy Bancroft

It's about the effect on children of witnessing and living with abuse, and that's by no means limited to physical abuse.

@scubadive as someone who has had a difficult childhood I can only fantasise about a conversation like you have suggested. I think it’s likely to be beyond OP too.
I don’t believe that makes either of us weak.

You need to put your DC’s before your mother I’m afraid, if she wants to see them then maybe you can take her out for the day with the dc and leave him at home? Or collect her so she can come to your house for dinner to see them? Don’t let your DC think that this kind of behaviour from a man is expectable.

Nasty men have children, and unfortunately those children have to deal with that. You don't have to like OR love the people who are your parents, nor do you have to see them.

I'd do as above OP - write your mother a letter, explaining you will no longer have any contact with the man she is married to, but she is more than welcome to come and visit you, alone, at any time. And explain how you no longer feel you have to put up with abuse and cruelty, especially as it is now directed at your children.
We can't change our families behaviour, we CAN change the way we react to it.
Good luck OP, I think this may be hard but it is the right thing to do.

You are doing really well OP. I know how difficult it is to see straight when you've been raised in this kind of situation, but you saw the behaviour and you are acting on it, you're doing a great job of protecting your girls.

And I know how hard it is, my step dad is similar with my DD’s but I can’t cut contact because of my mum, I keep contact to a minimum and often arrange to do things with my mum without him there, I also rarely take my DD’s there (I go alone when they are at school).

He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it

And what did you do? Stand by and watch.

I appreciate you are a product of your abusive upbringing, but for gods sake, pull up your big girl pants for the sale of your kids and put a stop to his abusive behaviour NOW.

By allowing him to cuddle them when they clearly don't like and not stepping in to stop it you are facilitating his inappropriate behaviour - it could be dominating behaviour (hopefully that is all it is) or it could be grooming, see how far you'll let him go.

You are sending subtle but pervasive messages that men can touch them whenever they like and they can do nothing about it - is that what you want for them?

@Tarquinthecat

Personally I would take him and your mother aside and speak privately and sternly. Give him one final warning: one more comment like that and he will never see your children again.

Can you not invite your mother to visit you alone for a few days, leave him at hime?

This is wrong on so many levels. . He is not a child that needs guidance , this is a grown person that has chosen to abuse his family ! A stern talking to Is not going to magically make an abuser look inwards and immediately recognise how damaged they are and work on themselves .

Meanwhile, watch your mum doesn't start guilt-tripping your daughters, via phone, cards etc

This is one thing I am really worried about. My mother is forever messaging them directly, that said they tend to send a quick message back and it has very little effect - for the moment. She does manipulate people she always has.

I am reading every post, I can't reply to each one but I am so grateful for your support, even the posts that have made me cry.

I would love to give my father a piece of my mind, but I am frightened that he would hit me/hurt me or do something truly awful. I did as a teenager, and once when he hit me I was 14 I picked up a lamp and hit him back as hard as I could. It took me 14 years to defend myself then.

OP . You need to accept there is no relationship to be had with your father .

With your mother ... she either comes to you alone or she meets you alone .

There are no other options.

There is no magic fix . Accept your parents for what they are . An abuser and an enabler .

It’s good to see your realisation here, I hope you can remain firm and protect your children.
Whatever sympathies you have for your mother, your daughters need you to do what she could not, and protect them.

My brother was similarly creepy towards me growing up, in plain sight of the whole family. I would not get undressed for bed in my own bedroom, went to the bathroom where there was a lock to keep him out. I spent years avoiding being alone with him. It’s damaged me, badly, and I’ll never forgive my parents for their failure to protect me from him.

I think counselling is still worth a second try, but with someone who recognises the kind of abuse you are describing - it’s been life changing for me to step out of the FOG.

Stay strong, the realisation moment is a big step.

As someone with an awful grandfather who abused his wife, abused my mum and aunts and is generally a twat I’m begging you to keep your kids away from him. I’m filled with resentment that my mother didn’t keep me away and he’s been once been within 100 meters of my dd. He tried getting closer and was told on no uncertain terms to fuck off or I’d start shouting. I’ve not had intended contact with him for over 20 years and it’s the best decision I’ve made. My dm otoh still keeps in touch and he periodically causes her great distress for no reason except because he can.

I think people are being really harsh on your mother. None of us know why she stayed. She may have feared, and been right, that her children would have been taken off her and stayed with the father, making their lives even worse, he may have threatened, and she may have believed him and been right to believe him, that he would have killed her and her daughter if she left, he may have threatened to have her institutionalised in a mental asylum (my gran arranged for this to happen to my mum for running away, as an adult, from her abusive family and came very close to carrying it off) She may have been so destroyed psychologically that she was unable to make the decision to leave.

Having said that, I would not have that man anywhere near my children.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

Nasty men have children, and unfortunately those children have to deal with that. You don't have to like OR love the people who are your parents, nor do you have to see them.

I'd do as above OP - write your mother a letter, explaining you will no longer have any contact with the man she is married to, but she is more than welcome to come and visit you, alone, at any time. And explain how you no longer feel you have to put up with abuse and cruelty, especially as it is now directed at your children.
We can't change our families behaviour, we CAN change the way we react to it.
Good luck OP, I think this may be hard but it is the right thing to do.

This. Call him out on every single comment.

I assume she is conditioned to the abuse -does she want to leave? If she did -she'd be living me like a shot. Maybe give her a way out. You can come and live with me and see GDS as much as you like but he is abusive. Try and meet with her alone -girls day out etc and avoid him at all costs.

Please do not make your daughters tolerate abuse. You saw your mother doing it. Now you are doing it to your own children.

Counsellor's do not encourage abuse -or good counsellors don't. They encourage healthy self esteem and boundaries.

I would call him out "she is dressed provocatively" = No she isn't. She is wearing shorts. Even if she was. It does not give any man the entitlement to pass comment. I'd encourage my DD to stop calling him Grandpa and call him by his actual name. DD says John what a sleezy disgusting comment to make about me.

Forced cuddles -he says come and give want a cuddle. Encourage DD to say "No I don't want to" and then if he moans say " DD does not have to cuddle or touch anyone she doesn't want to" -it's a heathly boundary and decision for her to make -what she wants. Spell it out.

Unfortunately I do know someone in a similiar situation. She went no contact. Eventually he died and she just moved in with the daughter and family and it was a different ending. There were always issues though as daughter resented her mother not doing anything for years-they had a lot of therapy to come to terms with understanding her position -abuse for years and control etc.