Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I has never helped before heffa of course I will have 'pushed' him to it by involving others. I had it coming. I know already what will be said if it happens.

I am hoping my brother has developed some emotional intelligence over the years.

If your brother doesn't show his wife, she'll be none the wiser.

I would email your sil a copy of the letter or db may never show her your letter. I bet she already smells a rat..
Rat being dgf..

Keep your doors locked and if your dad shows up you call the police, just as you would if anyone came pounding on your door. Why wouldn't you? You are entitled to protect yourself from anyone at any time. He doesn't have a key, does he?

I may be too late, but if you feel there's any way your DB would hide or not let his wife read your letter, then you need to send her a copy. Or at least address it to both of them and hope she gets the mail. Personally, I'd email it to each of them separately.

You're doing all the right things. Declaring your independence, getting counseling, protecting your DC, and informing your DB & SiL so they can hopefully protect your DN. No one could do more than you are doing. Be proud!!

OP Can you not arrange to visit him? Do you never see them? Is there not a family post covid visit due? Birthday presents to give etc? The girls can keep DN occupied & when all is calm you can explain to your bro.

Keep it short & non dramatic & arrange to exit not long after. Stress you are just filling him in on whats happened so he knows. You arent telling him what to do.

A letter is it in writing. A weapon. I wouldnt send it, personally. A weapon for him should he turn, & something that will be nuclear to them.

If theres absolutely no possibility of seeing him, even a cup of coffee when you are 'in the area' near his home or work then its got to be a phone call. 'A quick chat'. A low key, pleasant, 'we are on the same side' chat that doesnt even mention your mother. Shes not directly involved in this anyway.

All you are doing with your bro is explaining what you have decided, & why. Leaving it hanging that DN is also getting to that age, & is a girl. Mentioning it because you were concerned for your own girls, especially after talking to some people, & why wouldnt you you think of your DN too? Thats a totally normal thing to do in an abnormal situation.

A letter, imho, is a bit dramatic & goading. Especially for a brother who really, really doesnt want to think about it. And yes I do think its a little OTT.

Keep it about you & your decision & your children & your DN. You state the events & comments that lead you to make that decision. I wouldnt even discuss your childhood in any detail or try to get him to admit anything. Just say you wont be seeing D again, & you wont be letting him spend time around your children after he said what he said, & has said & done over the years.

He must get that, surely? Wanting to protect your daughters from a predator? Hes probably already thought of it.

You have done the right thing OP in writing the letter. Have you posted it yet? I wonder if you should send it recorded delivery/signed for so that you know it gets there.
Are you in contact with SIL? Could you check in with her in a few days if you haven’t heard anything to make sure she is also aware of the contents of the letter? The main thing is that your DN is protected. Whether your brother decides to cut you off altogether doesn’t matter, he is no loss to your life.
If your father does fly into a rage just remember he can no longer get away with hurting you anymore. Stay vigilant, if he does visit you call the police, show him you mean business. You are standing up to him and nothing will change that.

Keep moving forward OP. You have come too far to stop now. You can get through this and you will.

Thank you for all of your posts.
I had a few days away which was good.
I didn't send the letter in the end. I was worried that it would be misinterpreted or used against me as vodka suggested. My brother will need to take care of my father's behaviour around his children himself, I don't think my letter would make much of a difference. My SIL is very outspoken, so on reflection I think it is something they can deal when it arises. I am happy to talk to my db about it directly when I see him, therefore avoiding the trap of secrecy and covering up.

Well my first therapy session is today, and thank you to this thread I really feel I can move on with this problem confidently. Hopefully she will be able to support me so I can continue to support my children, and make good decisions for them. Thank you to everyone - you have all been amazing

Great stuff. A letter is a bomb and tbh you don't need the extra drama. They are already tricky enough and any involvement with them is just unpleasant. But do try to see your bro as soon as you can.

Guessing in the meantime your mum has been spinning him her poor me line and no doubt he's drawn in. It's not good to keg that story lie unchallenged and There's your niece to think of too.

Good luck for your counselling session later OP. Hope it goes well and that you feel a little lighter mentally afterwards. 🌹

vodka you are absolutely right, spot on. My brother was fed a complete poor me line the last time we had to cut my father off because of the way he treated my dc. 100% she will have made this all about us being unreasonable and all they have done is their best to make a happy family with some humour. Anyone who is used to this knows the drill, and I see the letter as a bomb as well. I will try and chat to my brother in a very low key way about what has happened, he can come to his own conclusions.
I am not keen to take him down this route if he does not want to go there - for decades now he has had his head firmly buried in the sand, not unlike my mother, and I am not sure anything has or will change. He has also been known to blackmail me, play one off against the other and all the rest as an adult over the years, so unless he has evolved substantially I am not sure he will be too interested (apart from the drama aspect, or if he is able to spin it is to his advantage) I am in no rush put it that way to do anything apart from stay away from them all.

I am so glad I started this thread, it has been so informative, supportive and kind. Making me realise there is a whole world of really decent people out there x

Totally. Steer clear of anything that could be construed as an opinion about him and stick to the facts. He said this and this. And what YOU have done ' so we have decided to not see him' followed by the effect on your girls ' when we drive away the girls were really upset and said this and that'. Finish with 'and they are pretty confident as a rule, but he's also said x, y and z. So that was really it for me, just wanted to let you know'.

And then a little doubt... 'I also thought you should be aware so you can watch out for DN'

And a smattering of an expert opinion. 'I spoke to a therapist about this and they thought it was a red flag' so it just gives him something to think about.

Finish with of course it's awful for mum but I can't risk my girls like that.

There's only so much you can do if someone is prepared to be stupid to prove a point. Hopefully if you say this in front of his wife she won't be quite as willing to dismiss it. But keep it short and stick to that and there's nothing to dismiss is there?