Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

There are a few ways.

1 you could confront. This never goes well. Sounds like you've already tried to give it a go confronting him. You could mirror his behaviour, say something really awful about him and then say can't you take a joke. Continue the way you have by saying, "that's inappropriate. please stop". He may make your mother pay later on though....

2 you could avoid. Just tell your mom you want to meet her for her advice on buying curtains / skirt something from the local shopping centre. Drive the 3 hours, drop your kids off at the shopping centre, pick up your mom, going to the shopping centre, have lunch, maybe watch a movie, just hang out. Then drop her home (have your kids duck in the car.

Best of luck. Your dad sounds awful and i'm hoping you can find a way.

And what did you do? Stand by and watch

It was as we were leaving he suddenly lurched towards my eldest dd and tried to sort of hug and cuddle her and said he loved her. It was the most awkward moment, I did not stand and watch. I pulled my dd away, put myself between them and said we must be going. I did that because she tensed up so much and did not want to be hugged.

I drove home thinking what on earth just happened. In shock at what he said, and slowly processing what it meant (We wont be seeing him ever again)

Sounds like an awful childhood. How would it feel to just tell them both the truth? ‘I’m not visiting because you are abusive towards my children, like you were abusive towards me. And mum, I am only willing to see you on your own.’ And then leave it with them. Just say it as it is. I’m not saying you have to do this, just think about how it would feel to put those boundaries up. And then decide whether you could do that or not

YABU for making them see him.

You don't have the feelings you have for no reason. You haven't created feelings towards him like this because you were over sensitive. He's a toxic nasty individual.

My mum never wanted children. She managed to care for us regardless but she made us miss out on love and affection. She finds sarcasm and pee taking easy, but she never bigs you up or tells you she's proud. She's led me to a lack of confidence and I've missed out alot in my adult life. I love her though because I know she loves us in her own strange way. She won't change. She was recently in hospital and me and my dad actually had such a different relationship without her around. He was more relaxed and even took my kid for a walk because he wanted too. He just seemed free. Obviously he loves my mum and wanted her home....

Back to your dad .... He is extremely toxic. Ofcourse your teenage girls don't want him to be making comments that suggest he's looking at their bodies and things. He should be protective of them and caring and telling them stories or teaching them nice things. But let's face it. He didn't do that stuff with you did he? He's not nice. He's cruel and he's useless at caring for young people. What does your mam think about all this? Is there a way you can collect your mum and take her out for afternoon tea etc with the girls or perhaps shopping. Anything that doesn't include him.

If no one's suggested it yet you might get a lot out of the stately homes threads on here OP, it's for people with toxic/abusive parents/family. Think this is the latest one but there are lots if you search www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/3902065-But-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-May-2020-onwards-thread

@Friendsoftheearth

And what did you do? Stand by and watch

It was as we were leaving he suddenly lurched towards my eldest dd and tried to sort of hug and cuddle her and said he loved her. It was the most awkward moment, I did not stand and watch. I pulled my dd away, put myself between them and said we must be going. I did that because she tensed up so much and did not want to be hugged.

I drove home thinking what on earth just happened. In shock at what he said, and slowly processing what it meant (We wont be seeing him ever again)

Good, I'm glad.

This is why I hate all that 'snowflake' shit, people just use it as a respond to bullying or inappropriate behaviour. The guy is basically hitting on your girls and it's creepy.

Is your mum in her 60s, OP?

Some posters on here are talking like she's from the Edwardian era.

Eventually he died and she just moved in with the daughter and family and it was a different ending

I feel a certain level of guilt that I have wished for this every day since I was five years old and found that you don't have to live with a man that hurts you. Mothers can live with their children all alone. I spent so many years dreaming that he would disappear and we would finally be happy and not hurt anymore.

When I was eleven there was a social services investigation as to why I was covered in bruises. My mother told me to lie or I will never see her again, my dream of escaping died that day as I waited in the school library with my lies rehearsed for the two teachers and someone from a department somewhere coming in for a 'chat' with me.I knew then that I might lose my mother altogether, and the thought terrified me.

@Friendsoftheearth

And what did you do? Stand by and watch

It was as we were leaving he suddenly lurched towards my eldest dd and tried to sort of hug and cuddle her and said he loved her. It was the most awkward moment, I did not stand and watch. I pulled my dd away, put myself between them and said we must be going. I did that because she tensed up so much and did not want to be hugged.

I drove home thinking what on earth just happened. In shock at what he said, and slowly processing what it meant (We wont be seeing him ever again)

You did the right thing. Good luck. I do feel sad for your mum though.

OP we were in a similar situation with my in laws. We had less contact, and we stopped staying overnight and met them for lunch occasionally, in restaurants. My dds were younger though. Fil died a year ago and they hadn’t seen him for a year before that .
My MIL still resents and dislikes me for not spending time there and not staying over with our dds once they were old enough to understand comments etc. In our case Fil also had mental health issues, but he was a horrible man.
We chose to keep our dds away from him as much as possible, while still keeping contact with MIL. Sil chose to spend lots of time there and minimise his behaviour , so is now the most loved child, which is awful for my dh, who only wanted to protect me and our dds from this terrible man.
It is a very difficult situation. The only positive is that your dds are old enough to understand it, for you to explain that he is a cruel person, but that you love your Mum and don’t want to lose her. Then they can choose whether to come with you or not. If they do ever see him, I am sure they are never alone with him, but give them free rein to tell him what they think of him if he makes comments .

How old are your parents ?

My mother is 72 and definitely has old fashioned values, and no self confidence whatsoever.

He will not change I echo the other posters that you must put your foot down and stop this now. My heart goes out to you and the fact that he is still bullying you is not surprising as he sounds intimidating and manipulative. This is the wake up call you need as his behaviour is so totally gross and inappropriate that it shocks me that he feels entitled to get away with it with no repercussions! It will only get worse, draw a very firm line and don't look back, absolutely no contact for you or your children with him. Your mum yes, but not him. I understand how hard it must be as you don't want to lose your mother, but I think she will see your point.

Put your abusive father out of your life and out of your mind. Give him no more energy or head space if you can.

Tell your mum you will meet her outside or at yours alone. When you see her explain why and what happens next - that you plan to never see your father again.

I can see why the therapist advised you to forgive but that assumes he was sorry or had changed and he hasn’t. So don’t feel about not forgiving him. He could change if he wanted to and he chooses to behave like this instead. So he pays the price.

Is your mother allowed out of the house on her own?

This might be his best behaviour but it will escalate with your daughters.
It’s a shame about your mum. Maybe we can’t understand her reasoning because it was a different generation. Perhaps she didn’t want to be single, perhaps she was scared - who knows? Don’t care really. She’s made her choice. For her to sit and watch him beat you is unforgivable in my eyes.
Just do the right thing here. Aside from your daughters, I don’t think it’s good for you to be around him either. Sorry x

Make clear to your mum that she is welcome to see you and the kids alone but that if he's with her, it will just be you.

Her choice.

I will take my mum out from now on, and see her alone.

Yes, that's what I thought. Unless she's completely agoraphobic you could go out. But you say your mum is manipulative, so things aren't ideal there either.

I saw a counsellor but she told me to forgive my parents and see them because not seeing them was upsetting me so much! How on earth do you find one that understands this kind of family dynamic?

It sounds like a relationship a friend had with her parents- she had been put in care due to their alcoholism etc, probably more that she didn't go into.

On a therapist's page on 'psychology today' or BACP it shows what they specialize in/can cover. Look for one that lists abuse maybe? Or some other keyword.

Google etc- therapist, your town, abuse

It is trial and error to find a therapist that suits you. It can take a few tries to find one that's a good fit. Chat to them on the phone a lot beforehand. Some will offer 20 mins for free for you to get a feel for what they're like.

Bring the issue with your parents up in your first call to them and see how they respond. Bring it up in your first session and see if their reaction seems helpful- if not you needn't book any further sessions with that one.

Best wishes. xxxxx

Imagine how you would have felt in the thick of it as a child if your mum had said "NO, THAT IS ENOUGH. You will not speak to our daughter this way, she deserves to feel loved and protected and safe." You have the chance to say that to your daughters not in words but in actions by ceasing contact with him

How I would have loved my mother to actually do this!!!!!!
It would have been a dream for both my brother and I, she came close a few times but she never did in the end.

But you are right, we can have that ending this time, because I can say those words. I am actually stronger than I sound on here. I can and will do this.

The overall theme I'm getting is control. OPs dad has control over his daughter and his wife, and is now trying to control his GDs. I think it's time OP and her mum took back that control. He will not like it one bit. His behaviour makes him feel good about himself. I think actually without this behaviour his self-esteem is very poor indeed. If you boil it right down, he's a pathetic person.

I'm not a psychologist by any means, merely my observation.

I am a mental health professional who works with abuse survivors, and I would say that "counsellor" was entirely, frighteningly wrong, and seriously harmful. People can set themselves up as counsellors or therapists without having any qualifications or accreditation, maybe it was someone like that? So I would recommend you find a real, qualified therapist, CBT would be good as someone mentioned earlier. Make sure the person is registered with a professional body such as the BACP, and has credentials in treating trauma/abuse survivors.

Apart from that, as you already know, absolutely do not let your daughters have any further contact whatsoever with this abuser (same goes for you, he is continuing to abuse you too).

How awful op. Your mum failed to stop his behaviours but you get to succeed with your own daughters.

I think you only have 2 options here.
The first is you see your mum alone or invite her to stay on her own.

The second is worst case scenario but if you have to make the choice then you cut them both out. Your loyalties are towards your girls. There is nothing else to say about that.

I wish you well

I have decided to find a CBT counsellor today, because if nothing else because it will help me raise my own children differently, I have to be sure I am teaching them boundaries.

I have always championed the word no, and we talk a lot about boundaries and their own red lines. DDs seem to be remarkably assertive with very defined ideas of acceptable behaviour from everyone around them. I see that they apply this to friendships etc.
So I have reason to hope that I have broken the cycle in many ways already for my dds - as painful as it has been to take the hit, and it is painful. I feel lost and sometimes alone. But I can't afford to be complacent now. I have worked really hard to get to this point.

@Friendsoftheearth

Eventually he died and she just moved in with the daughter and family and it was a different ending

I feel a certain level of guilt that I have wished for this every day since I was five years old and found that you don't have to live with a man that hurts you. Mothers can live with their children all alone. I spent so many years dreaming that he would disappear and we would finally be happy and not hurt anymore.

When I was eleven there was a social services investigation as to why I was covered in bruises. My mother told me to lie or I will never see her again, my dream of escaping died that day as I waited in the school library with my lies rehearsed for the two teachers and someone from a department somewhere coming in for a 'chat' with me.I knew then that I might lose my mother altogether, and the thought terrified me.

I hate to say this but your mother does not love you as much as much as you think.. She was not merely passive in standing back and “allowing” the abuse, she proactively told you to lie to Social Services to protect your father and herself.

Those are not the actions of a loving parent.

You need to tell your mother that you are cutting off contact with your father and that she needs to make a choice - take his side or take yours, there is no middle way.

Do what your mother couldn’t do and put your children first. You shouldn’t force them to see him.