Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I am not going to pull the thread, but I don't think it is fair to put together so much information about me, and post it all on here so it becomes really outing. I think that is very unfair.

Hi folks

We're going to leave the post noting potential contradictions, and the OP's subsequent post explaining this.

That's where we are drawing the line now - any further troll hunting will be removed and dealt with appropriately.

This thread is about a serious issue and derailing it is simply not on. Please do bear this in mind before making any more posts.

As ever, concerns should be reported to us.

It is pretty grim, I find hard to put into words, but making my skin crawl is exactly it. snow and it is really horrible to have anyone look at your child in that kind of way, even worse when it is a family member. I am always surprised he feels he can actually say it out loud as well. Nothing inside him saying that would be wrong or anything.

Do you have siblings? I have DB also with a pre teen dd, and obviously we don't do family things because I don't usually see my father and haven't for years, but I don't know whether it would be right to warn my brother or just to keep quiet. We are not overly close, but we are in contact. I am worried about my dn as she already has confidence issues, and if he starts on her they could be in the same position. Also knowing how devious my father was last time, he is saying things quietly and then calling it a joke. I am not sure my db or his wife will necessarily pick up on it for a while at least.

I am still thinking what I should do.

I hope the comments on this thread were helpful, I gained much insight reading them and they have helped me no end. In our case I am not having anything more to do with him now.

Sorry, I had a wobble about leaving that post up and pulled it. Its still painful for me, and I can't risk being identifiable for lots of reasons. Yes I have siblings, and yes I have had to have difficult warning conversations with them so no one else was put at risk. It wasn't easy. I was the youngest so they didn't experience or realise the abuse that took place after they left home. They are mostly still playing happy families on the grounds that it was a long time ago (I often feel like the nasty suspicious odd one out). But I notice that they have all kept their girls a safe distance from him, and he no longer has any means of accessing other unsupervised children or teenagers. (He seems to have no interest at all in boys - either in terms of grandparent type care, or in terms of prurient or cruel comments. It's like they just don't properly exist for him). Its all very strange and now I am a parent myself I realise how utterly weird and inappropriate the things he used to say about me were. Just totally out of order. Please keep protecting your DD.

I understand snow don't put anything on here that makes you feel in any way uncomfortable. Better to be the 'nasty suspicious one' than not protect your dds though. We get labelled to shut us up I am sure of it. Many get away with this kind of behaviour because everyone is too polite.
If you have the time, some of the posts are really good on this thread (there are lots of them) and very supportive of hard decisions. for you and your dd.

Thank you friends. Fortunately, I don't have DDs. I have a DS. He has been of no interest to his GF at all, and honestly I ws a bit relieved. Thankfully he's too sunny a kid to be bothered! Reading through the comments on this thread has helped. My DF is a very old and unwell man now, and probably won't be here for much longer. I am at that age where friends of mine are grieving the passing of their 'darling daddies' - I just feel cold and hard at the prospect. We are still LC. But there you go - it is what it is, and it wasn't my fault. Nor is it yours.

I haven't read everything... I stopped at this paragraph OP

"We had a weird dynamic of golden child in addition to the violence, because my mother openly and publicly would say he was her favourite because he was so beautiful and intelligent - he was a very sweet little boy, she considered him a genius and asked for him to be IQ tested at school etc. She was very honest about it, even to our family and friends."

Yet she was happy to coach you how to lie, saying your beautiful sweet brother beat you up (what child his age can give the same bruises as an adult male?) and said times were different?

Either she is talking bollocks and is either an enabler or an abuser, not a scared little wife, or you're talking bollocks... I'm not quite sure yet. Though, it was fantastic that the support you got here in that 1st hour was enough to take you fom confused - is this abuse - to vowing never to see him again. I'm not going to read any further ad you got what you needed (encouragement from MN to the do the right thing?)

I'm a bit surprised some of you can not grasp the complexities of these things. It's not particularly contradictory to post what the OP has. She said right away she was close to her mother and in some ways she is/was. But then when you start to think/talk about it all there's more to it. I could say the same about my parents. It's complicated.

As for the brother business none of what the mother has done makes sense - but her loyalty to her husband is absolute. She doesn't seem to see children as people and no one is going to haul a child off to prison so he was always safe. It's weird but then people are.

OP do you have a relationship with your brothers wife? Can you have a quiet word with her? I think your brother is too messed up to take you at face value and may well see it as some kind of game/competition on your part.

@Friendsoftheearth just joining at the end to say don't dither about mentioning something to your brother and his wife about your niece. At least then you'll have given them the heads up and they can decide what to do with the information.

My family situation is complicated and I suspect would be considered too far fetched if a story were made about it.

I very much doubt they'll believe you. The dB is enmeshed in this situation and as golden child he can't have his history rewritten. I'd imagine his wife believes and supports him. You'll be already painted badly.
Anyone, without your family, wouldn't be impressed with your dads comments and would step back. So don't worry about taking on more pressure.

@Vodkacranberryplease

If the therapist is nice but not qualified or experienced then you are essentially getting someone like a friend you are paying to listen to you. She might say the odd insightful thing but do would a friend.

Honestly why would a so called professional organisation put a trainee on their website?? You need experienced. You need an expert. You have already worked 80% of this out and are very smart with a good life. You've probably done so much just on this thread. You don't need a click. You need someone who knows what they are doing with women in your situation.

God therapy depresses me. Anyone, literally anyone can do it. The biggest barrier is have you got the money to shell out for your own therapy 3 times a week? For years and years. Which is cheap per session but expensive to do overall. Apparently that's why most of them do it, they just really want that much therapy. They are all very nice and always sympathetic but that's really not enough.

A counsellor who is not yet accredited could well still be experienced and qualified. From the BCAP site:

You must be in practice when you apply for accreditation. You must also have:

been in practice for more than three years (these do not have to be consecutive years)
completed at least 450 hours of supervised practice, accumulated over three to six years (which don't have to be consecutive). At least 150 of these hours must have been after successfully completing all your practitioner training.
been supervised for at least 1.5 hours a month throughout this period of practice

www.bacp.co.uk/membership/accredited-membership/

@Friendsoftheearth I've not quite reached the end, but felt compelled to jump in at this point. Good counselling or therapy can be so very very helpful. Sometimes painful, but in a constructive way.

Your story has shocked me, and I've marvelled at your strength as you've taken on more understanding of your past. I wish you and your family all the very best as you move forward.

vodka It is complicated, because we all want the best relationship we can have with our parents, it is by its nature a very intense bond and one that is difficult to look at with objectivity and neutrality I have found. Thank you for recognising that. Maybe for others with normal childhoods this level of mixed feelings towards a parent is unusual to them, but it is not for me and for others in my position. Families are not straight forward in my experience, I really wish they were.

asandwich and forrest Perhaps the only decision I have left to make is how do I warn my brother, or if I should.
If he reacts in a negative way and goes to my parents, then this could make things even worse - if thats possible. I am leaning towards thinking the safe guarding is more important than anyone else's reactions. It is likely to blow up, least of all because my mother is likely to interpret me trying to take two sets of grandchildren away, when that is not my intention.
If I warn him, even if he dismisses it, at least he knows. We never ever talk about our childhood, it is completely taboo. We talk about the kids/holidays and anything in the present, never the past. But he lived through it as well, and he knows that I am a truthful person, so even with a negative reaction because I am making things 'difficult' for everyone, I suspect he will heed my warnings. He thinks the world of his dd.

Thank you stone I will start that journey soon. I have a very well qualified lady lined up, I have spoken to her on the phone at length already, my instincts are she is going to be great actually. I felt reassured just listening to her as she outlined her approach. I am willing to give it a shot, and will follow the EDMR model, as suggested by vodka and others. I am really hoping it will help.

And this thread has had its ups and downs, but thank you for all being there and with such sound advice

So does a Psychodynamic counsellor specialising in emotional and physical abuse sound like the right thing?

Yes. I realise you've chosen a therapist. But this is my job for the NHS. This is exactly the issues I deal with sadly on a day to day basis. At the moment its the relationship with your Mum that seems to be the main problem as she is an abuser to. Its extremely difficult to accept this and therapy will help you work this through.

laguna Thank you for your post. You are right it is the relationship with my mother that I need help with, because I accepted the situation with my father some time ago. I am having a lot of trouble managing my feelings around my mother, because even now I can not for the live of me see her as an 'abuser' and I resist the need to defend her. Even though rationally I know she has hurt me a great deal. I really hope the counselling next week will help me make sense of it, and move on.

You do an amazing job, really you do, helping people in this way can save many lives and bring comfort and a sense of peace to others. I would settle for just understanding it all fully at the moment!

**is what

Safeguarding is FAR more important than your parents. No question. And you know what? Fuck them. Just fuck them. No more pretending they were normal or ok just to keep on side. Your father was and is an abusive prick. You don't need him on side snd your mother needs a wake up call.

No. An innocent child does not get sacrificed for her just so she can keep whatever warped world view she has. Not again. You've started this and you might as well finish it - she either wakes up or not, up to her. She's already sulking and playing games so what difference does it make? No more tiptoeing around this to keep her ok.

How do you tell your brother? Simple. You simply update him with what you have done yourself and why - then add 'I'd be worried about any girl around him including DN'

So something like it thought I should explain I've decided not to let D have any contact with the girls. Last time we were there he did x and y and sctually thinking about it he's done x and y over the years and it's made them very uncomfortable around him'

You could add something like I spoke to a professional (a white lie but some of us are professionals in various fields ) and they thought it sounded very concerning.

Let it sink in then deliver the 'I think he could be a risk to DN. I wanted to let you know. I would hate so much for anything to happen because I didn't tell you. Change subject. Done.

He will tell your mum (running off to mummy) who will pop poo it and then he might start to slightly realise that she's been letting things happen. I heard a great saying on here and I'll repeat it.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Yes this is family. Yes your relationship with your mother is complicated. No you are not ready to have her never speak to you again. But you've warned her and I'm sorry your DN comes first. She will get over it of not.

The truth will set you free. Such a trite saying but actuslly.... it's true.

Do you know you are absolutely right, and I really needed to hear that vodlka why am I still allowing them to silence me?!To keep more secrets just to keep him happy? Risking another child. You are absolutely right.

I will write a letter, I don't think it would be easy to say or to text, and he can reread the letter if he needs to in the future. It could mean he cuts me off and takes massive exception to the letter/warning, but at least I have done the right thing for my niece. I have pretty much nothing else to lose on the family front anyway!

You could add something like I spoke to a professional (a white lie but some of us are professionals in various fields grin) and they thought it sounded very concerning.

The OP is trying to disentangle herself from game playing.

The truth is enough.

I have written and rewritten the letter, fact checked it to make sure it is absolutely correct word for word. Thank goodness my dds sleep in as teens.

It is ready to go, but I am feeling afraid to post it.

I am trying to work out why I am worried, after all it is the truth and undeniable, and there is small chance my brother is going to read it and think I am making a fuss about nothing, that he will take my father's position I suppose. What happened in our childhood maybe a benchmark for him, and this is nothing when we compare it what we went through as children, it is not as if my father hit my girls etc.

I think I need to prepare for the fact my brother may actually agree with my parents, that he is no different from them even now we are adults - and I need to be okay with that because I have done the right thing for my DN.

He may show my sil and she may have a different view to my db, at least she has the knowledge and can protect her dd, so whatever they choose to do with the information at least they have it.

My instincts: they may all defend the status quo and turn on us to keep it all in place, but I am willing to keep an open mind and see. If my db thinks this is all okay, then it might be better he stays away from us anyway. I have had more than enough of aggressive men that put down and hurt women to last a life time, he will be no loss if that is the case.

I am also afraid that if my father learns of the letter he is going to fly into a rage, he might drive here and attack me, hit me. I can't imagine he is going to take this lying down, I have done something unforgivable.

I have taken him on.

That is how he will see it. I am worried he will come here. In my rational brain I know my dh would never allow it, I would call the police, I could probably stand up for myself now effectively if I had to. So I know he can't really hurt me like that anymore, but the nuclear fall out of actually telling the truth now. I am afraid of that. Once it is out, it is out. Shit.

If he flies into a rage and does something that looks very bad that might help you?