Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

@Friendsoftheearth

Yes how do I manage this? Do I speak to my mother? HE is always there, listening, but I could ask for a private word, and tell her that I don't think his comments are appropriate and we won't be seeing him with the children anymore? She will sob and cry, there will be a huge massive drama however I do this. By phone or by letter.

Or I could just quietly drop the children out of visits. Not mention anything and only arrange to see my mother. Cross the bridge when I come to it, of why the dds are never there. I am low contact anyway, so we hardly ever see them. Twice a year more or less. Covid has been a saviour.

Your mother is as abusive of you as your father. She controls you with hysterical crying and makes you feel bad.

You’re mother failed you OP

And you are failing your children if you don’t go NC with your father

your

Well done

I think you have subjected your daughters to enough already, don't you

This

I think your decision has been made more difficult by the damage your father has done to you, which is still working in you. Have you had any professional support to help you process your feelings? If not and if you can afford it, you really should - because you deserve happiness and because it will help you manage your dysfunctional parents (I do include your mother in this).

You've come to a good decision now, so stick to it and start the work you need to do to heal yourself.

You poor thing. Horrible situation. If it helps at all, in cases where I’m worried that whatever I do will hurt someone or cause trouble I find it helps to focus and decide what matters the most. In this case in my view your first duty is to your children. Your fundamental duty is to protect them from harm, make them understand that nothing matters more to you than their best interests and that you will act to protect them first above any other consideration. Maybe explain in an age appropriate way for them why your father’s comments are inappropriate. (For what it’s worth I find them horrifying.) This teaches your children healthy boundaries for their future.
It sounds like the kind of thing where there are no good solutions if your mother won’t prioritise you, her grandchildren and herself - so you act to prioritise your kids and yourself.

It really infuriates me when people are cruel, and when you call them out on it they try and turn it on you, saying you can't take a joke. MIL's DH (not my DH's DF) used to do this whenever my young DS said he'd upset him. I say 'used to' because we no longer see him. He was a negative force in our lives. My DF used to goad and bully me about my weight when I was about 16/17: long story short, it resulted in me being convinced that I was fat and ugly … stopped going out, stopped seeing friends, ended up putting on more weight. My DM stood by and never said a word - part of me thinks she was relieved that he'd found someone else to pick on, other than her. I ended up with an eating disorder that haunted me for the next 20 odd years. I feel a lot of resentment towards my DF, but also towards my DM, as she enabled him. Stand up for yourself and your daughters: show them how to be strong and refuse to let people make them feel bad about themselves. If your DM is unwilling to meet you alone, them I'm afraid that is the price she must pay for her misplaced loyalty. Don't make the same mistake.

Is there any possibility of having your Mum to visit without your Dad? I know she doesn't drive - could she take a train?

Definitely agree that your Dad needs to be out of their lives, but understand your desire to keep your Mum around.

In the meantime, your girls are probably old enough to understand that their Grandad is basically an unpleasant person and it is best for him to not be in their lives.

Your children are at an age now where you easily say they are seeing their friends, doing their hobbies, don't want to hang around with old people. It's totally normal for teens to drop out of family visits. I would play on this.

I feel like he stops my mother from seeing us alone, I don't know how he does this, but she used to come and stay a lot with me. She described it as the most lovely part of her life, because no one argues in our house and it is a happy home, and she can finally relax. She loves being with us and with the children, she looks extremely happy. He used to call every day and she would play down all the things we were doing.

I offered years and years ago, and do so regularly for her to live with us. But she insists 'she is happy enough'. He is 100% controlling of her though, she hasn't had her own money for years, and everything is channelled through him. He used to say he couldn't wait for us to leave as he would have my mother to himself, and yes he has pretty much managed to isolate her - she has a handful of friends left and a sister around the corner (so not alone)

So she knows we are always here. And always will be.

What made me give him a second chance with the dds? I guess some lame hope that he would be different, that the years of not seeing them would make him realise what he stood to lose. Even at the grand age of 46 I must have still held a flicker of hope that he would finally step up for my girls, not so much for me.

I now know he isn't going to, ever.

OP, you get this, that is obvious and I’m sorry you’re in this situation and that basically you had a rubbish counsellor before.

Have you considered visiting a counsellor who specialises in CBT? Your boundaries will understandably be a bit messed up and CBT is good for empowering yourself to train your brain to act within new boundaries, normal boundaries, and manage your thoughts in a way that can aid you to go forward without being anchored by past criticism and bullying.

Just a thought x

Personally I would take him and your mother aside and speak privately and sternly. Give him one final warning: one more comment like that and he will never see your children again.

Can you not invite your mother to visit you alone for a few days, leave him at hime?

Your father is an abuser physically and emotionally.

Your mother is an abuser emotionally, manipulating you and guilt tripping you with tears and words to encourage you to maintain contact with a man who physically and emotionally abused you.

That's not to say she isn't a victim but victims can be abusers too if they enable and excuse to this extent.

She failed to prioritise you and continues to do so. She also fails to prioritise her grand daughters, which was her second chance to make better decisions.

This cycle of abuse will continue unless you go no contact with your father. And if you feel unable to go no contact with your mother a conversation needs to be had in which you explain you do not want him to be brought up because of how triggering it is for you to be reminded of a man that was prioritised over your mental and physical well-being for decades. If she cannot agree to this, she's made her choice.

A good counsellor never tells you what to do, let alone tells you to do something damaging like disregard previous abuse and reengage with an abuser. That's so disappointing and I'm sorry it added to how shit this all is for you.

Imagine how you would have felt in the thick of it as a child if your mum had said "NO, THAT IS ENOUGH. You will not speak to our daughter this way, she deserves to feel loved and protected and safe." You have the chance to say that to your daughters not in words but in actions by ceasing contact with him.

I really hope you do

I know this is harsh, but your DM stayed with him and therefore you suffered. By staying in contact with her you are allowing his abusive behaviour to hurt your daughters. Cut contact and let your DM take some responsibility for seeing you and your DDs' without him.
End the cycle now, or you're storing up issues with and for your DDs' futures.

Stop going, tell them why. Your father is a pervert; sexual predator. She accepts that, you don't.
NC

@Tarquinthecat

Personally I would take him and your mother aside and speak privately and sternly. Give him one final warning: one more comment like that and he will never see your children again.

Can you not invite your mother to visit you alone for a few days, leave him at hime?

He's had too many chances already, this is who he is and someone needs to break the cycle of his behaviour being around vulnerable people including teenage girls.

Oh and I would absolutely explain to your daughters why you are making this decision and that is isn't appropriate for ANYone to be making comments like this.

He will know it makes them uncomfortable and feel rubbish. That's why they do it. I would explain that to your DDs too.

Op

You have made headway in recognising how utterly awful your father is.

I think you now need to start thinking about your mother. She allowed this cretin to treat you like shit as a child and she doesn’t say a word when he verbally sexually abuses your daughter.

She sounds utterly spineless and pathetic.

@Tarquinthecat He won't care about that. They love the attention and the power it gives them to stir everything up. To upset everyone. Abusers like to keep people wrong footed and working hard to make things okay. He won't give a shite.

You can see your mum without taking your daughters. There is no way I would subject my daugher’s to this. Please protect them from him. Sorry but sounds like your dad is a pig.

Personally I would take him and your mother aside and speak privately and sternly. Give him one final warning: one more comment like that and he will never see your children again

No, I am not doing that I am afraid.

I will only be giving him one more chance to hurt them again, and I am not prepared to do that.

You are not weak OP you have had a traumatic childhood and having to deal with this as best you can.

You mentioned that a counsellor told you that you had to forgive your DF. I'm spitting feathers on your behalf. Come to accept what has happened in your childhood and what roles BOTH parents played -yes. Allowing you to grieve for the loss of a normal childhood but ultimately moving on in your life. A decent counsellor will help you with your feelings and helping you move forwards. I wish you all the best.

That precious counsellor you had was awful OP! Find one that specialises in abuse. Or ask for counselling through yr GP and explain it's because of historic abuse and ongoing issues.

Also, call Women's Aid or any DV helpline. They are not just for women being abused by their partners. A long conversation with them is like a mini counselling session. They could also suggest how to move forward re yr girls, who possibly need a bit of support after being exposed to this man too.

Your mum is definitely a victim too, and there are ways of talking to her which just might help. So very difficult for her to escape after so many decades though.

I'm so sorry OP. But there are people out there who will completely understand. How does yr DH feel about all of this, you don't mention him much?

Also if you look at the "But we took you to stately homes" series of threads on MN you will find many adult survivors of abuse, some trying to negotiate the grandparent thing too.

🤗 and 💐.

I'm sorry about your mother but she's an adult and chooses to stay with him, you owe it to your children to protect them, that's your responsibility