Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

@MistressMounthaven a life coach if a good one is a great idea. They are focused on solutions, on moving forward. Not on endlessly rehashing the past.

Now that sounds like my kind of therapy
I may never ever come back!!

It has been done before in fact, and I kid you not in my 20's and it did actually work!!! I would seriously recommend it to anyone! It is much easier to say whats done is done when you are swimming through the turquoise waters without a care in the world.

The pressure comes with having your own kids actually. Not only does it awaken the memories of your horrible childhood, there is also the pressure to have 'happy families' and extended bonds for your children beyond you, and happy memories etc. And don't even get my started about grandparents day in schools!

You win the best suggestion yet!

You are great vodka thanks for sending me over the info.

I am kind of over it all now with my brother, he has his own reasons to stay tethered to it all (mainly financial I suspect) and it is not for me to step in and try and help him see the light. He knows he can come to me, but I only have space for respect and honesty.

You sound amazing Vodka you are really do, and despite going to hell and back with your own therapies, I hope you are back on track now There is only one way up when you hit rock bottom x

You are very welcome! Anyway create your own amazing happy family memories! Start a memory board or just a big board in the kitchen where you put all the mad photos of your family and friends. The DD being bitten by holding a turtle, the unfeasably large cocktails you and DH are about to scoff, the celebratory bbq you throw because you are free (and you tell everyone it's post lockdown). Don't forget the one of yours and DH toes facing the turquoise sea from your sun lounger. Well jell.

Fuck them all. Shame about the will and all that but never mind.

@Friendsoftheearth I want to wish you every success with your therapy. I read from all of your posts that you acknowledge the damage your mother has done. This is a massive part of your need for therapy and I hope it works for you. Consider writing a letter to your brother explaining what your mother made you do. He deserves to know the truth. He may not acknowledge it, but one day, he might need to.

Just to say that having a test session with a therapist is a great idea, but it's to check whether you gel, and trust them, not to see any result. You're not going to come out of that session with some resolved trauma. A decent therapist wouldn't even dream of starting that therapy with you on a one-off first session - it could potentially be dangerous.

Instead you will discuss what the treatment would involve, how it works (you might be set some homework to read into it too, which is cheaper than having it explained to you at £x an hour!). You'll probably be asked to give an overview of the trauma(s), main issue, symptoms. If you decide to go ahead you will probably then be asked to fill in some forms about your trauma(s). You would also expect to establish some grounding techniques that you will use with the therapist, during or at the end of EMDR sessions, to make sure you are safe at the end. This might involve establishing something like a safe memory for you (I think of this like a Harry Potter Patronus). Then if you become very distressed in subsequent sessions, the therapist can get you back to this safe place before you leave each session. If you see a therapist who wants to jump straight into treatment and skip these steps, then run! They aren't safe.

That said, EMDR can see remarkably quick results (once it's properly started). The fewer the traumas the quicker the treatment usually is, so a one-off traumatic memory could potentially be dealt with in a few sessions. Complex trauma, as in an abusive childhood, will take longer (possibly over a year).

EMDR

They think it has something to do with the same function as REM sleep. Somehow. It can be extremely effective, but it's also de-stabilizing for a while so you need to take that into account and plan accordingly. There are conflicting theories on how good it is on repeated childhood trauma, and that seems to come down to the particular individual. It works like a dream for some people with childhood traumas and not for others.

EFT also seems to work, and no one knows how! :) But some very respected Trauma specialists rate it.

I would be really wary about someone with limited experience. I've had perfectly pleasant counsellors via my work support service, who were just standard counsellors, and they were able to take me through some standard processes, but unable to understand the way in which I think, and therefore how to engage with me in a way that actually challenged my thinking. In one case the therapist was just a helpful, supportive voice, but didn't actually help me resolve anything. In the second case the therapist actually made things worse by digging away and getting all the trauma to the surface but was then completely out of her depth and unable to actually resolve it. So it basically retriggered me, as well as frightening me off therapy for years. The only 2 therapists who made an obvious impact were both recognised experts with many years' trauma-specific experience, and I wouldn't have left the first if circumstances hadn't forced me.

I think with any kind of complex history like yours, you need someone really experienced. But as a PP said, that interpersonal connection is an important factor too.

EMDR does indeed sound completely batty, but it's NICE recommended and has been shown to be effective in decent clinical trials. I believe it's now the recommended treatment for trauma. It might not resolve things completely, it didn't with me, but it took the sting out of them and enabled me to move on in a way that didn't work with just CBT and some pretty wishy washy non-specific counselling.

Can you not see your mother outside the house? Her local park or cafe? Or drive to your house for a couple of hours. Your DC are old enough to even stay at home alone for the time it takes for you to go there and back, no?

I would not step back in that house. It's leaving your kids with low confidence and that is the WORST thing you can do at this age.

Good luck and be strong for your kids!!!

I apologise I’ve only read the OPs posts so not the thread in its entirety. I really just wanted to say how much I admire you @Friendsoftheearth. You should read all your posts together like I’ve just done (maybe new feature - very useful) and I think you’ll see that your an extremely strong person who I open to working though all these childhood issue and ensuring her own daughters are protected also. I think you sound like you have amazing inner strength and insight to have left your childhood home and then an early Abusive relationship. To know you needed to work on yourself and not rush into relationships for many years is also a sign on your resolve. So many fall into patterns of on DV following on from another. You found a good kind husband and father for your children. You HAVE protected your children and given them strength too. Yes recently you met up with your abusive father and he showed his true colours but he way he acted to your daughters. It’s okay to be shocked and a bit of a delayed response to this. You have recognised yourndaughywrs shouldn’t be anywhere near him nor indeed you yourself and you instinctively knew that as you were nc or lc when they were younger. Your daughters now withdrawing form your mum is due to them maturing and realising that actually granny wasn’t that nice either as she didn’t protect mum (simplification). I think that shows that your girls have their heads screwed on right. Your own feels about your mum are bound to be conflicted. It’s easy for an outsider to look at what you’ve written and say she was as abusive as him...but that’s your mum and childhood and I’d imagine you were seeking at least one parent that was loving and cared for you so a lot of her indirect abuse is easily dismissed. I really hope your therapy helps you work though all this. It sounds like you are already almost there with your dad but your mum and brother are more complex. You don’t owe either anything.

You seem strong to me. I’ve no experience of DV personally but my heart goes out to woman like you who has such deplorable childhoods. I can’t imagine how many children are going through similar right now and hope that society can protect them somehow. Lockdown really won’t have helped. I hope people are more aware and more active at reporting suspicions of abuse these days too. All the best.

I agree with @Vodkacranberryplease... I have been to hell and back reliving my own traumatic childhood. Fuck them all. Move into the future with your own lovely family and create the healthy dynamic you want without guilt. You know it’s wrong to abuse children. You know it’s wrong to let someone else abuse them. No adult is helpless.

I have actually kept a copy of your message whale what a kind and lovely message thank you. When I have a low point or feel guilty or lost I will read the messages again.

I have found a good therapist specialising in EDMR as recommended by so many people, and I have decided to hold off seeing my mother until that is finished. I need some space to think about it all, and I think there might be a little more pain where my mother is concerned to go before I am truly done.

He can't hurt us anymore, thank you for helping me see that.

I wish everyone well with the fallout of their childhoods, an easing of the pain, and finding love, comfort and peace in their adult lives to you all x

So my mother sent me a gift with this on the front:
'how lucky am I to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard' A.A Milne.

And again I am feeling terrible, sad and how does she even know, and why send me this. It seems so sad, so very sad and has made me feel such anguish again...

OP, I suggest you ignore it, put it away for now. I suspect it is part of your mother's manipulation.

@Friendsoftheearth

So my mother sent me a gift with this on the front: 'how lucky am I to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard' A.A Milne.

And again I am feeling terrible, sad and how does she even know, and why send me this. It seems so sad, so very sad and has made me feel such anguish again...

This is really cruel of her. She being very manipulative.

I agree with PP, put it away for now and try not the think about it. You’re doing what is right for your DC. Unfortunately that means not keeping your mum happy. You’re doing the right thing.
One day you’ll get thoughtful gifts from your DC that aren’t loaded with manipulation because they’ll be so grateful you kept them safe xx

Could you not meet your mother in a local town or city that she can get the bus to meaning you can avoid him but not miss out on contact with mother? That way if you needed to stay overnight due to long journey you could stay at a budget hotel?

^So my mother sent me a gift with this on the front:
'how lucky am I to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard' A.A Milne.^

people like your mother, who have had to survive severe violence and threats, have a second sense for when things are going to go wrong. They've had to develop them. Tbh .. given your father's nature, you probably are more sensitive to atmosphere and people than most.

It could be coincidence, but there's a fair likelihood that she's sensed something.

But the fact remains that you have to put yourself and your children first.

She's clinging to you, because she realises you're close to understanding how she treated you.
There's nothing wrong with saying I need some space until I've had some therapy working through my childhood.
If you word it like that you're not actually casting aspersions at her, but I bet she kicks off/sulks about you getting help for yourself.
Remember you need to put yourself (and your children first now. Your mum put herself first when you were little, your turn now.

Get some therapy to help you process what happened to you as a child and to help you stand strong against him now

Cut contact with him. If your mum wants to see her grandchildren it needs to be on your terms. Maybe collect her and go somewhere without him, but make it crystal clear that only she is invited.

The gift does feel intended to make me feel FOG again.
It is not a straight forward present, but one that is designed almost to upset me. It is in the draw now, but I can't help but feel she is trying to reel me back in.

your mother has done it on purpose
Put it away or bin it. Please don't let her do this to you
Forget all plans to meet up with her or confront her
It's got to stop

It does feel intense, I get so messages telling me she loves me. Over and over again. Do other people's mothers send messages like that?
But if I am in hospital she completely ignores me for weeks (last year)
I feel confused and tired.

You are being reeled in. Ignore.

I agree with others that your mum has done this deliberately. She knows your dad behaved badly during your visit and she knows that you have cut contact with him and her in the past. She is “love bombing” you, it’s a common tactic designed to throw you off.

Don’t acknowledge the gift, give it away if you can (charity shop or something) and don’t respond to her messages until you have made a decision on what you want to do.