Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I can recognise the overbearing love bombing, but it is something I associate within relationships not between family members. It feels very confusing after all who wouldn't want gifts, and loving messages. They don't feel sincere, I don't want them and I don't feel happy to receive them.

They make me feel uncomfortable and like I could literally run for the hills and not stop running.

She has told dh something else is coming tomorrow, and we need to look out for it. wth. It is weird and throwing me off balance a little.

I don't want presents or message professing love. I really don't. If I tell her to stop she will will get very upset and feel rejected.

Could it be that when you are vulnerable, she can't cope. couldnt when you were a child, can't when you're ill?

But when you are strong she clings to you as her support?

if she's been beaten down into submission, she probably is longing for a life-belt to cling too, unconsciously. Perhaps you're it. When you are weak, she really can't cope. Perhaps the excessive love messages are a child's way (adult child) of trying to make sure you'll never leave her.

Boundaries are very important.

I see your mother as trapped in a coercive and abusive relationship. She is likely in denial. She wants to keep in contact no doubt partly because she's your mother and loves you, but also because she is scared to lose the current set up. It is perhaps offering her a form of protection, at least in her mind.

The thing is that you know you can't maintain this set up without it harming everyone involved. Breaking the dynamic might be painful for everyone, but on some level you know what is healthier.

Co-dependency is a very powerful dynamic and yes, you know about FOG and how we get lost in these situations.

What I would suggest is that in the long run dismantling the dynamic as is might actually help your mother. Someone standing firm, maintaining boundaries and saying no can really help introduce fresh air and sunlight into the relationship. Eventually! Not saying it's easy. Change is hard.

It can also be a process that can take its own time to play out. Which is why quick fixes might help but may not provide long term improvement. I've generally found a combination of approaches works best to address complex issues. Sometimes it's two steps forward one step back. We make missteps. You just have to keep in keeping on as best you can. You'll feel when you're on the right track - there may be emotional pain but you will also feel solid ground under your feet. And that will gradually become firmer, all being well.

I hope this makes sense, OP, trying to explain what I've found to be a mix of research, questioning, learning, unlearning and experimentation.

The reason I advocated therapy is that after many years of using different coping mechanisms I wanted to finally look at the roots of the problem. I'm sure it differs for different people, I've felt therapy as a sort of co operative venture where I try to look deeply and my therapist is a helpful other perspective. She's made it possible for me to find insights I wouldn't have otherwise.

Of course this depends on lots of things - type of therapy, dynamic, context, etc. I'm not going to suggest it works for everyone but I think it's starting to address issues that were buried so deep I didn't even recognise them.

Apologies for the length of this! Hopefully some of it is of use.

I suggest you ask your dh to take the second gift and put it away for now.

That confusion is the root of your distress - and gosh how well I recognise it!

You love your mum. As a child you needed a parent to love and that could only be your mum.

That never really goes away, even as an adult. You want a parent to love.

But that parent is also tied up in a lot of hurt. Of pain, betrayal, criticism, judgement, belittling, neglect, indifference.

So to receive a gift is very confusing. The love bombing is confusing (why aren't you being neglected, put down, dismissed, ignored?)

It's very messed up. I don't think any form of therapy is the answer, ime it's too blunt an instrument. How can anyone else really understand?

For me the best solutions have been to try and distance myself a bit emotionally and shift my emotional focus elsewhere; to read up and decide myself on a useful narrative to make sense of it; and - as Vodka says - to look to my future and keep a massive dose of fuck it in my mind. After all, none of it can be changed now.

All we can do is try to limit the damage for the future, for ourselves and dcs.

EMDR - I think it's useful for the 'raw' end of PTSD, ie the flashbacks and reliving. The subtler stuff - doesn't touch it.

sea It sounds very strange but my mother and I swapped roles when she had a breakdown, I became the parent at eleven because I had to, she couldn't cope looking after the house, my brother or me. It never really recovered. I found myself spending hours listening to her, comforting and reassuring her. Cleaning the house, and looking after her. When things improved I tried to go back to what it was before, but she was emotionally unavailable and buried herself in work. Our relationship stayed with me always comforting, parenting her.

Sounds totally weird, but that is how it is. When I had an accident I found myself reassuring her, when I was in hospital she would spend the whole time talking about how difficult this was for her. Every birthday, christmas, easter is all about her and what she wants, because it is her 'special' time of year. Even my birthday is all about her and how she gave me life that day etc. So it sounds extreme, but it is the way it is.

Moving away she said was a bereavement, and she went into a deep depression. We are just a few hours a way.

I can not emotionally prop her up anymore. I have my own life to lead.

The real problem started when I had babies of my own, and they did need my 100% attention.

You are right when I am ill or my children are in hospital she disappears every time for months sometimes, she can not cope. Or when she had to be there when I was young, it was all about her feelings of sadness that this was happening to her and not me.

Sorry long post.

I feel like I have been living my life through a prism of her needs, when I pulled away to lead my own life, the upset and the blowback was enormous, because she lost the life support system. But I can't be anyone's life support.

I am a cheerful positive type of person and it is like she taps into and drains the battery dry when I am with her, it is a smothering extraction and I come away feeling so drained and exhausted.

hm. You were parentified. It's rather common in highly vulnerable and unable-to-cope women; it's a known thing, so it doesn't sound strange (do you get the feeling you're diving into a strange and topsy-turvy emotional world right now, getting to grips with all this? a lot to come to terms with! )

it's actually a subtle and pervasive and destructive form of abuse in itself. In your mum's case, she is desperate.

But you are the child, and you shouldn't have to take responsibility for your mum until close to the end of life when she is incapable. You've been handling it since you were 11. It's not right.

For me the best solutions have been to try and distance myself a bit emotionally and shift my emotional focus elsewhere this, a 100% this.

That is IT sea 100%
What a relief to know and to understand it. Thee is even a name for it!
I have never heard of it before, but yes that was precisely it!
I feel like someone has turned the light on.

I was sexually abused by my grandfather and he talked like that.
Please don't take your daughters to see him.

This is quite an in depth read with some links. Awful. This on its own is a life changer - with abusive father I'm amazed you are as, well, amazing as you are!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/543975/

bento I am so sorry that happened to you. It is horrendous and really hope you are supported and cared for now Bento.
I absolutely assure you I will not take my girls to see him, and in fact they haven't even seen him for years and years before this.

Even without my childhood issues, he is referring to children sexually and that is a massive red flag to me. It is not okay to look at little kids like that, the fact he has no filter and comes out with it terrifies me. I don't know who he is...in fact I don't actually know who either of them are anymore.

I had amazing friends, I had support from other parents of friends, I spent a year in hospital with (mostly) kind nurses, and that was a reprieve as a child.
Good teachers were stabilising factor and were very nice to me, and I used to go to church (to get out of my house on Sundays as it was so bad) and I was surrounded there by normal, kind church going people that made me realise not everything in the world was as violent and unpredictable as my home life could be, and singing is a great healer. Singing your little heart every week, praying for things to get better was really good for me at the time.
With my mother things didn't get very bad until I was eleven, so until then I did have some love and kindness from my mother, and luckily for us my father worked 80 hours a week thank goodness, so he was not always there taking out his bad day on us. We learnt to disappear when he came back. I used to wish he would never come back vodka and feel awful for saying so.

It sounds like you know what you need to do you just need the confidence to do it.

Your daughters are your priority and they cannot be subjected to your dad for the sake of your mum.

You either see your mum without your children or you stop seeing your parents for a while.

Life can be hard enough for teenagers self esteem without the added pressure and negativity from “family”.

Good luck and stay strong

Thank you. I'm extremely lucky and now have a husband and children of my own.
Families can be so strange, cycles of abuse, guilt, reversals of roles etc. Sometimes you just have to step back. You can't change their behaviour, only how you react to it.
Sorry you are going through this and good luck.

You deserve to be loved and cared for bento so happy for you

Update:

I have spoken to my mother about my father's behaviour. I asked to speak to him, but he was busy apparently. I decided honesty was probably the best way forward. I explained calmly what was said and how damaging it has been for my children, I asked her whether it would be right in continuing the abuse I experienced as a child, and that I was drawing the line now under all of it. She would be welcome to see the dc occasionally if she wished to, but not my father. She said very little but did agree it was not right.

And now silence. She is clearly now ignoring me as she would usually send a text or two.

I went to bed feeling sick with FOG, I recognised the guilt I was feeling (and asked myself why I feel guilty for my father's dreadful behaviour??) and for my mother not standing up for us. I guess I know I am shattering my mother's dream of playing happy families.

I don't understand the utter silence.

I am sure you have all moved on with other threads, but if anyone can tell me why I am getting the silent treatment (again) I would love to know. Anyone else might have acknowledged the situation and the difficulties, at least by text, if they truly cared...

You are (rightly) asking her to change the 'rules' she lives by. That you dad's abuse is to be ignored. That we are to play 'happy families'. That your children must be subjected to him so that she can have an easy life.

She's either punishing you for your stand, she's taking time to digest the fact that you will no longer make her life easier at the expense of your children, or your dad has forbidden her to contact you. I doubt that last one as she probably hasn't told him what you've said.

Remember that none of this is your fault. You are entitled to peace and you are doing the right thing for your children and for yourself.

Your and your mother both have a choice. You made the right one. The fact that she hasn't AND that she expects others to sacrifice themselves to make her wrong choice 'work' for her is despicable.

I am sure you have all moved on with other threads, but if anyone can tell me why I am getting the silent treatment (again) I would love to know. Anyone else might have acknowledged the situation and the difficulties, at least by text, if they truly cared...

I think you've answered your own question, they don't truly care - because if they did you would never have been put in this situation in the first place.

The silent treatment is either demonstrating that your message has hit home, or, alternatively, demonstrating that, really, nothing has changed. Only time will tell, I guess.

The first step is always the hardest. Well done for having your say, and now feel free to focus on yourselves and your lovely family!

You know she is deep in denial. She has been and always will be - partly out of guilt because she knows that she was a part of it. If she admits how wrong it was she also is admitting that she let it happen.

I think she needs time to think it through & I dont think you should be rushing to reassure her. Shes a grown woman & you have acted with grace & kindness allowing her into your DCs lives.

Incidentally, dont you think its interesting that your DC are very 'meh' on the subject of seeing her? And that your DH is actually, underneath it all, rather angry with her? I dont think they care whether they see her or not. So you may only be doing her a favour trying to bring her into your lives - I dont think they care.

I also think she will pretend the conversation happened & quietly not quite take you at your word. There will be times when she tries to inflict him on you, 'just for an hour' etc.

I think this will be a gradual process for you & thats ok. But he will die & then youll be left with her. And I very much doubt spolit brother will look after her. Thats the other thing. Shes favouring him. Just ugh.

OP, you might get some answers in Relationship board.

I feel sorry for you and your DDs, not sorry for your parents.

Your mother has choices, your DD’s have to be protected from the monster of your father.

Your mother’s loyalty lies with her husband(in her opinion).
It’s impossible tomaintain status quo without somebody being upset.

Hard choice between your mother( who should want the best for kids and grandkids) and safety of your DC.

You did the right thing.
Yes, you feel guilty that you backed your mother into a corner and she’s ignoring you now. How guilty would you feel if you continue the relationship and see your DD’s upset/distressed or on worst occasion groped/ raped?While their granny pretends/choosing to not to see anything?

Best of luck OP, glad you stood up for your DD’s

Let your mother stew

Hi OP,

I’ve followed your thread from the beginning and I am in awe of your resilience, kindness and strength considering everything you have been through.
My only suggestion would be the silence from your mother is just a continuation of the never ending pattern with her. If she doesn’t like hearing something (the truth hurts) she then goes into wounded soldier mode. I can only hope the fact she agreed your father’s behaviour was not right is a move forward. But please don’t dwell too much on your mother’s feelings, she was also part of the abuse cycle and did next to nothing to protect you. It shows what a good person you are that you still want to keep some kind of relationship going with her.

Have you had any luck in finding a therapist that might be suitable?

I’m so glad you have such a lovely DH and daughters, plus good friends around you. You must make sure you take care of your mental health and look after yourself.
I wish you so much luck OP in moving forward.

In my view the silent treatment is an expression of contempt, whether she is conscious of this is another matter, I think she is in denial, not owning any of her behaviour
there probably is no comfortable way out of this situation, she feels loyalty towards your father and that is much more powerful because he has so much more 'weight', because she has always defered to him she cannot now break the habit or break the loyalty, it might be that the only way out for you is to break your loyalty to her.
I say do not back down, the ball is in her court, leave it to her to make the next move, if she makes no move just leave it

@Tarquinthecat

Personally I would take him and your mother aside and speak privately and sternly. Give him one final warning: one more comment like that and he will never see your children again.

Can you not invite your mother to visit you alone for a few days, leave him at hime?

No. He's had too many chances already. He will not change.

I am sure you have all moved on with other threads, but if anyone can tell me why I am getting the silent treatment (again) I would love to know. Anyone else might have acknowledged the situation and the difficulties, at least by text, if they truly cared...

fingerscrossed summed it up If she doesn’t like hearing something (the truth hurts) she then goes into wounded soldier mode.

At a guess, you drawing a line hits her directly like both a criticism, and an intense threat that her lifeline (you) might not be there. She probably can't cope. It is not intended as those things but when you've been abused, you can start reacting very defensively to things and taking them personally because you are directly under threat. And as someone said, it's holding a mirror up to her. She never protected you/was not able to protect you, you are stronger and protecting your children. THere's a good chance she's angry too, somewhere, because she's relied on you to be her mum since you were very young and now you're withdrawing.

You are doing the right thing, lovely, however hard it is and however sick you feel with guilt.

You've also been conditioned to be your mum's emotional carer since you were small and so the engulfing guilt can be complex: maybe you feel both guilt at letting someone dependent down, and you are horrified at the possibility of losing whatever shadow of parenting she could give you.

.... It's possible I'm extrapolating too far, there!

She probably is trying to process what you’ve said and what that now means for her going forward.

You could try sending her open ended messages or you could just leave it, whatever feels right for you.