to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

@Friendsoftheearth

I have never met a pandemic denier in real life or on MN noble so I have no idea what on earth you are wittering on about.

@noblegiraffe accuses people of being pandemic deniers because she had nothing of relevance to add.

If teachers honestly think parents want their children back in school because they don't believe in covid I despair for the future of education

@Friendsoftheearth
So your case hangs on the bleating of a few disenfranchised teachers with no facts or basis from the science community or elsewhere. There is no case to answer - come back at christmas and we will reassess

I've already supplied you with evidence of outbreaks in educational settings, data demonstrating that children over the age of 10 spread the virus at the same rate as adults do and highlighted what some countries are doing to ensure schools don't overly contribute to any potential rise in transmission. I've also made reference to what our own scientific advisors have said with regards to mitigating the risk of opening schools by closing other aspects of society.

@noblegiraffe

People who insist that schools re-opening, putting teachers and students into what is described by scientists as a high risk setting, won’t lead to outbreaks or teachers being infected or schools having to partly or fully close are pandemic deniers.

Some of them are pandemic deniers because they are conspiracy theorists, some of them are pandemic deniers through monumental stupidity.

Or perhaps they just have a higher risk appetite than you

@noblegiraffe
Do you mean to keep posting articles that argue the opposite of what you are arguing?

Very this.

Why don’t government test all teachers and secondary school pupils in the first couple of weeks of schools opening? We have the testing capacity now.

@snappycamper
Or perhaps they just have a higher risk appetite than you

Very possible. Everyone has to judge their level of risk individually and make their own personal calculation. Only... the vast majority of these people don't work in schools and so aren't calculating their own risk, are they? They're calculating mine.

@Friendsoftheearth

The science just does NOT support your theory for PPE and indeed any spread of the virus within schools.

You would have an infinitely strong case IF the schools were producing sound evidence of virus spread, death and sickness, but nowhere in the world has that proved to be the case.

So your case hangs on the bleating of a few disenfranchised teachers with no facts or basis from the science community or elsewhere. There is no case to answer - come back at christmas and we will reassess.

I think a lot of science has been evidenced here and on other threads. Just keep your fingers in your ears singing 'La la la I can't hear you'.

I presume therefore, that you won’t mind, if you go to the supermarket and, and need to wait two hours to be served, or it’s shut, because there’s no staff to serve you, that’s alright?

Rubbish lying all over the streets as there’s no refuse collections? If you have a leak you will be lucky to find a Plummer to help. And if you do he will charge a small fortune as he’s one of the only ones in your area, and can charge what he likes (plus he needs the money), wife’s had to go off work, kids are at home.

I assume if you Or your loved one need to attend hospital in a dire emergency, you will accept the fact you can’t have timely treatment, as the female consultant specialised in the treatment you need, has gone off to look after her children, as schools shut, no childcare. Her husband is working, but he isn’t the specialist you need.

Hope no one you know Is due a baby, if the predominantly female workforce in maternity all down tools, pregnant women are in trouble....... but hey staff need to be home with their children...... that’s the only priority.

Need a police officer in a timely manner? No sorry theyre mostly home with the kids.

You say employers will need to ‘manage‘ but often the people they need with the right skills at the right time, happen to be parents, during school hours.

I assume you will be happy that mainly women will pay the price for this?
Women and children. How much abuse/neglect has not been picked up while children off school. I dare say levels will be rising even more given the financial pressures parents have.

Yes schools are there to educate. But they are also to serve the public in a greater way. As in contribute to the wellbeing and development of children in their care.
They also allow parents to work which contributes to turning the wheel in society.
We are all part of this whatever we do. Business generates money to pay for public services. Healthcare Keeps us well. Schools educate and are one of the cogs that allows society to function. Get over it!

Teachers have not had any drop in pay throughout all of this.
You talk about employment protection for parents? How is this going to work? There is no money in the economy.

I don’t think most teachers share your attitude. And thank god because if you really believe a schools role in society is education, I wonder why you are in the job.

So I think perhaps you need to consider what other public services have done throughout this pandemic. Teachers have mainly been home or working with greatly reduced numbers when the stats were very high.
Nows the time to step up.

And they have their own workplaces to consider. What's your point?

I don't think we can continue with closed schools any further. The government needs to engage with unions to get teachers back in the classroom. When this all kicks off in the last few days before schools open they're going to have a lot of angry parents on their hands if they don't agree something that teachers can accept.

Oh look, they’re out in force this morning. Did another klaxon go off on their facebook group?

This isn’t about keeping schools closed. It’s about keeping them open.

The pandemic deniers are arguing for something that will close schools.

I think OP that YABU. Our entire economic model is built on GDP growth that has been fuelled in the last 40 years by female participation in the workplace. This in turn has driven house prices up as demand has increased out of proportion with supply as each couple tends to be able to afford twice as much.

Right now schools are glorified economically necessary childcare. They have the side effect of equipping our children for economic participation, but that job could largely be done by parents if one was at home to do so.

So yes, YABU to tell parents to have a plan B when literally everything else is organised around then being available for productive economic work. It just doesn't work that way sorry OP. If illnesses spike then people are just going to have to get on and deal with it, the same as we do every year during flu season.

It's all well and good thinking we shouldn't do this, but it's what's coming because there's no chance they will be able to afford to extend things like the furlough scheme. And it wouldn't be desirable anyway, because inflation is coming and it will have even more problematic consequences.

So if you have PPE and an extra sanitiser you will be happy noble?

@snappycamper

And they have their own workplaces to consider. What's your point?

I don't think we can continue with closed schools any further. The government needs to engage with unions to get teachers back in the classroom. When this all kicks off in the last few days before schools open they're going to have a lot of angry parents on their hands if they don't agree something that teachers can accept.

I agree completely. I've not once seen a teacher state that schools should not open - everyone I know is exceptionally keen to get back, as they were when we welcomed back all year groups on a part time model in June. They just want to know that whatever can be done to ensure we can remain open for the foreseeable future is being done. None of the staff in my school want to go back to remote learning ever.

@noblegiraffe

Oh look, they’re out in force this morning. Did another klaxon go off on their facebook group?

This isn’t about keeping schools closed. It’s about keeping them open.

The pandemic deniers are arguing for something that will close schools.

Read what @Catmanduu has just written. And really try and understand it. Trust me you are doing your profession no favours

don’t think most teachers share your attitude. And thank god because if you really believe a schools role in society is education

Should say schools only role in society

What a load of utter rubbish.

I dont have a plan B- i have no family to help out. If you do, then bloody good for you but not everyone does. Stop with the preachy, know it all, patronising BS like this post.

Just bore off.

@snappycamper

And they have their own workplaces to consider. What's your point?

I don't think we can continue with closed schools any further. The government needs to engage with unions to get teachers back in the classroom. When this all kicks off in the last few days before schools open they're going to have a lot of angry parents on their hands if they don't agree something that teachers can accept.

But teachers aren't asking for schools to stay closed so...

There's is something between closed schools and normal running open schools.

@noblegiraffe

Oh look, they’re out in force this morning. Did another klaxon go off on their facebook group?

This isn’t about keeping schools closed. It’s about keeping them open.

The pandemic deniers are arguing for something that will close schools.

Constantly saying the phrase 'pandemic deniers' makes you sound really wanky and it's hard to see past that and take anything you're saying seriously

I posted up stream and described this thread as goady and agreeing that society needs children in schools as a key part of the overall system working. While I think some of the wording/tone is negative to parents I do think you raise some good points about teacher safety etc. But - I think we need to stop these issues being teachers vs parents. The government are the ones we need to be lobbying for action on both sides - help with plan b childcare for parents - ppe for teacher's etc. Turning on each other isn't going to help.

*@noblegiraffe accuses people of being pandemic deniers because she had nothing of relevance to add.

If teachers honestly think parents want their children back in school because they don't believe in covid I despair for the future of education hmm*

I have to agree, I am very worried for our children if this thread is in any way a true reflection of teaching staff thinking capacity and reasoning. Hysterical nonsense whipped up by the hard left unionists with no evidence to support their theory.

A few weeks ago I may have listened, and even supported some of their points but it has become impossible to even understand the incoherent rabble of doom. They should simply resign with some dignity or buy some sanitiser, the endless whining is turning the profession into a laughing stock.

My medic friends are in utter disbelief (and dismay) given many of them were on the front line with barely any PPE in the peak!

@Friendsoftheearth

So if you have PPE and an extra sanitiser you will be happy noble?

I appreciate the question wasn't directed at me but I'd be happy with any measures designed to make remaining open as viable as possible in the long term. I never want to have to have my class closed again - it was awful. At the moment, the only Covid-19 measure we have is 'bubbles' and these are more of a tracking measure rather than a transmission-prevention one.

Sue, it’s what they are.

How else do you explain the assertion that putting teachers into high risk environments with no mitigation measures won’t cause outbreaks?

There are a group of people who think the pandemic is a hoax and want schools to open with no mitigation measures because when schools remain open with no issues (which is what they think will happen), this will prove that coronavirus is a conspiracy theory.

Others, like I said, are just monumentally stupid. But you should see some of the stuff supporters of this group are posting on other sites.

@noblegiraffe

Sue, it’s what they are.

How else do you explain the assertion that putting teachers into high risk environments with no mitigation measures won’t cause outbreaks?

There are a group of people who think the pandemic is a hoax and want schools to open with no mitigation measures because when schools remain open with no issues (which is what they think will happen), this will prove that coronavirus is a conspiracy theory.

Others, like I said, are just monumentally stupid. But you should see some of the stuff supporters of this group are posting on other sites.

Parents wanting an education for their children are not pandemic deniers. You sound ridiculous

And Sue, teachers have been arguing with this group for months now. We know their lines.

And they also have a habit of posting toxic shite about teachers, which is astonishing given their desperation to have kids sent into their care.