to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

Interesting that it’s a 60-40 split given the narrative of the (extremely long) thread.

Scotland have had some higher levels recently hence lockdown in aberdeen i assume schools fell into this as well or was it just before they went back ?

The lockdown in Aberdeen happened a week before schools went back and, to my knowledge schools returned last week. Only permitted travel is for work and education.

@noblegiraffe

Teachers: don’t engage with the pandemic deniers.

They’re toxic.

It is amusing that @noblegiraffe is referring to posters as 'pandemic deniers'. Especially those of us that work for the NHS and have worked throughout this whole pandemic.

I wonder what her experience of it has been? Reading threads on mumsnet presumably

Some schools have been open throughout the pandemic from start to finish, no big outbreaks whatsoever.

Most primary schools were open from half term to the summer holidays, no big outbreaks whatsoever.

If were going to see a huge infection surge from schools reopening it would have happened by now. I think we can safely say opening schools has not altered the infection rate whatsoever, we have the evidence now.

And moreover we opened schools without masses of PPE and the unions long shopping list of demands!

If we agree to the 99 demands on the unions/teachers list, and by the way some are truly ridiculous such as breastfeeding space and extra boxes of tissues then they will simply increase their list of demands by another hundred or so.

The point of the union is not to make anything covid safe (as schools are already as safe as they can be) It is to obstruct and stop schools opening at all.

It is obvious to everyone that this is what they are doing. Teachers are going along with it because I assume they are enjoying their extended paid holiday, the hard left unions have politicised schools closures and are trying to make things as difficult as possible for a tory government. They want to see as much carnage as possible.

The unions are using schools as a politicised weapon to try and damage the government as much as possible in the middle of a crisis. And our children are caught in the crossfire, and are being damaged as a result.

And to think we all thought the covid front line was in the ICU wards in hospitals.........

@Sometimeswinning

This will blow your mind, none of our classroom windows open due to the traffic noise.

@Friendsoftheearth

During July, there were 183 outbreaks in educational settings in England alone with less than 25% of students returned and in smaller bubbles with social distancing. That's more than anywhere else other than care homes. However, don't let the data stand in the way of your narrative.

The scientific advisors have openly stated that opening schools fully will require other closures in order to balance of the impact on total cases. However, don't let the science stand in the way of your narrative.

Neither the unions nor teachers wish to see schools closed and have never said that that is what they want. However, don't let the truth stand in the way of your narrative.

You correctly say that I've been back in school since June but then say I'm enjoying an extended holiday. However, don't let your own internal inconsistencies stand in the way of your narrative.

You're right that education and children are being used as a weapon, but not by teachers nor the unions.

I noticed you like the word narrative iam

Please link the evidence to support your claims of 183 outbreaks in school because that sounds like utter BS to me.

Anyone can say anyone, it needs to be supported with links. Unsurprisingly we can not see any to support your spurious claims.

*anything

@Friendsoftheearth

I noticed you like the word narrative iam

Please link the evidence to support your claims of 183 outbreaks in school because that sounds like utter BS to me.

Anyone can say anyone, it needs to be supported with links. Unsurprisingly we can not see any to support your spurious claims.

I've supplied evidence whenever I've been asked for it unlike all of those whom I've asked for evidence from and been provided with nothing.

This is a screenshot from the report. It's a downloaded document from Public Health England called "Weekly Coronavirus Disease Surveillance Report" and this one is from the Year 2020 and Week 30.

@Friendsoftheearth the school I work in and my dc's schools were open during that period. Here's why they were less likely to have an outbreak...

At my secondary school, open for key workers and eventually years 10 and 12.

Years 10 and 12 were taught in the main hall. Tables were spaced out 2 metres in either direction. Lessons were set so in between each hour of teaching, there was an hour for cleaning. Each student only attended one lesson a week.

Key worker/vulnerable student provision was provided to 22 students. They were spread out over 4 teaching areas with a max of 5 students to an area/classroom. Students had a designated work place. Space was available in these areas for more, but this was not taken up.

Sanitiser was initially available in all teaching areas and on entrance to the canteen before being reduced down to the main hall, one central teaching point and the canteen.

The students who attended for key worker/vulnerable student provision washed their hands and sanitised prior to dinner in the canteen, where most of the chairs had been removed and it was 2 people to a table instead of the usual 6. They were spaced out. Students had a set seat.

In my dc's primary school they had provision for key worker/vulnerable students in the hall. Again, each student was assigned a desk and these were spaced out. Unless they were outdoors, they did everything in the hall.

When students were able to return, the spacing allowed for a maximum of 6-8 students to a class, depending on which classroom. They also sat one to a desk which was spaced out in the class. Each year group was assigned a toilet cubicle and sink to use.

The students were assigned a laptop which was labelled with their name so they used the same one each day.

In normal times, my secondary school teaches 1758 students. Dc's primary teachers 173. Is it really so hard to see why there were no, or few, outbreaks reported in schools over this period?

parents are within their rights to create informal bubbles to exchange childcare if a school closed

Not if you live in the NW.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@Sometimeswinning

This will blow your mind, none of our classroom windows open due to the traffic noise.[/quote]
The lecture theatre I teach in doesn't even have windows .....
These issues are not unique to schools.

Morning @SueEllenMishke, hope you're feeling a bit better this morning.

You're right - poorly ventilated areas are going to be something that hits a lot of people.

It is impossible to read iam can you please send the links.

@Friendsoftheearth

It is impossible to read iam can you please send the links.

Sorry about that: the image seems to have blurred in the upload. I was unsure I'd be able to find the report as I didn't think it would still be on the site given that we're several weeks into August now and they've updated with new weeks but I've managed to locate it: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/903450/Weekly_COVID19_Surveillance_Report_week_30_FINAL_UPDATED.pdf

On a related note, you said that we now have evidence to say that schools have not altered infection rates whatsoever. Please could you supply this evidence?

It's page 11 by the way.

My respect for teachers has absolutely plummeted during all this.

@2ruddyhot

My respect for teachers has absolutely plummeted during all this.

Irrelevant.

People who insist that schools re-opening, putting teachers and students into what is described by scientists as a high risk setting, won’t lead to outbreaks or teachers being infected or schools having to partly or fully close are pandemic deniers.

Some of them are pandemic deniers because they are conspiracy theorists, some of them are pandemic deniers through monumental stupidity.

@Iamnotthe1

Morning *@SueEllenMishke*, hope you're feeling a bit better this morning.

You're right - poorly ventilated areas are going to be something that hits a lot of people.

Thank you.

Ask me again on Friday ......hopefully by then the 30 dissertations I have to mark will be done and I'll actually get a weekend off!

iam

The very first line that summarises the entire report is:

'COVID-19 activity continued to decline or remain stable in England across the majority of surveillance indicators'

So in what way do you consider the threat to be increasing? Surely this is the perfect time to open schools if covid is in decline or stable?

Additionally we do not know what educational settings refers to as this summary is for the last four weeks. Schools have been closed, so how can there be any outbreaks in schools that are closed?

'Table 4: Total number of situations/incidents by institution and PHE Centres over the
past four weeks with the total number in the last week in brackets

The care home stats by far outstrip educational settings - 512 care homes versus 183. Clearly the issue is in care homes

Can you please explain how you think there is a current live outbreak in schools when they are closed? It is a mystery to me.

Friends visited yesterday - their DC’s are in junior school. They have had no schooling since Covid started. The school issued no online material, no printed booklets - nothing. No contact from the school, phone calls and emails not returned. My friend and her DH were both working from home, sometimes 8-8 so no time to try home schooling. The DC’s are now refusing to even look at a book, let alone read. Previously both would have been classed as high achievers. My friends have contacted the school Governors and the local education department regarding a formal complaint. Teachers are going to have a huge job to get these children engaged in learning again.

What is also notable about a particularly nasty group of pandemic deniers is that when cornered, they will slate teachers.

I have never met a pandemic denier in real life or on MN noble so I have no idea what on earth you are wittering on about.

I have linked an extremely good report that covers all schools in the EU and concludes my point:

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission