to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

The report is from week 30 and refers to weeks 29 and the 4 previous weeks - when schools were open. It says so in the second line.

This German report linked here goes as far as to confirm that children act as 'brake' to the virus, it actually goes as far as to say that children stop the virus because they are unable to transmit it:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/13/german-study-finds-no-evidence-coronavirus-spreads-schools/

@Friendsoftheearth

iam

The very first line that summarises the entire report is:

'COVID-19 activity continued to decline or remain stable in England across the majority of surveillance indicators'

So in what way do you consider the threat to be increasing? Surely this is the perfect time to open schools if covid is in decline or stable?

Additionally we do not know what educational settings refers to as this summary is for the last four weeks. Schools have been closed, so how can there be any outbreaks in schools that are closed?

'Table 4: Total number of situations/incidents by institution and PHE Centres over the
past four weeks with the total number in the last week in brackets

The care home stats by far outstrip educational settings - 512 care homes versus 183. Clearly the issue is in care homes

Can you please explain how you think there is a current live outbreak in schools when they are closed? It is a mystery to me.

As I said before, the report is from the end of July and is focused on what was happening in the country from the last week in June until the 3rd week on July. It's not based on what is happening now when schools have closed for the summer.

I agree - care homes has been and continues to be a huge issue.

Oh Friends, you know all their lines.

So do we. There’s been enough of them on here.

@SueEllenMishke

I don't think anyone has said these conditions apply to only schools. Most universities are moving lectures online however.

If yours isn't, I will happily support you in campaigning for whatever you need to be safe.

We should be joining forces, not racing to the bottom.

What if your employer won't accept a flexible working requests as they have a legal right to do so?

Your employer has a legal duty to consider flexible working, providing they can justify why and fully explain it they can also legally refuse to accommodate your request.

Requesting isn't a dead cert it will work.

[quote Friendsoftheearth]I have linked an extremely good report that covers all schools in the EU and concludes my point:

www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission[/quote]
"While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented, they do occur, and may be difficult to detect due to the relative lack of symptoms in children"

"When symptomatic, children shed virus in similar quantities to adults and can infect others in a similar way to adults. It is unknown how infectious asymptomatic children are."

"If appropriate physical distancing and hygiene measures are applied, schools are unlikely to be more effective propagating environments than other occupational or leisure settings with similar densities of people"

"Decisions on control measures in schools and school closures/openings should be consistent with decisions on other physical distancing and public health response measures within the community."

So children can spread the virus at the same rates as adults and further data is needed to understand asymptomatic transmission. Outbreaks are happening in schools. Schools can be safer with the appropriate measures and the same concerns should be given to schools as are given to other working environments.

I'm not sure how this goes against what I've been saying.

The point is Iam we can clearly see all across the world, the outbreaks in schools have been absolutely tiny when compared to the actual outbreaks elsewhere. One could argue you are far more likely to pick up the virus almost anywhere else.

There has been very little transmission between children - read the reports yourself, I could link many more.

The issue of outbreaks was hospitals and care homes, and lately food packing plants. It has never been schools. Private nurseries have been open for months, with no reported problems at all.

An employer has up to three months to consider a flexible working request and can reject an application for any of the following reasons:

extra costs that will damage the business
the work cannot be reorganised among other staff
people cannot be recruited to do the work
flexible working will affect quality and performance
the business will not be able to meet customer demand
there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
the business is planning changes to the workforce

although the evidence from contact tracing in schools, and observational data from a number of EU countries suggest that re-opening schools has not been associated with significant increases in community transmission

This was the key point

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@SueEllenMishke

I don't think anyone has said these conditions apply to only schools. Most universities are moving lectures online however.

If yours isn't, I will happily support you in campaigning for whatever you need to be safe.

We should be joining forces, not racing to the bottom.[/quote]
Most universities are doing a combination of in person and online lectures. Other than the OU I don't know of a single university who is moving EVERYTHING online.
There doesn't need to be a campaign. Offering face to face teaching is the right thing to do.

If appropriate physical distancing and hygiene measures are applied, schools are unlikely to be more effective propagating environments than other occupational or leisure settings with similar densities of people

Where do you get 30 people in a 6m by 8m room with no social distancing in a leisure setting?

[quote Friendsoftheearth]This German report linked here goes as far as to confirm that children act as 'brake' to the virus, it actually goes as far as to say that children stop the virus because they are unable to transmit it:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/13/german-study-finds-no-evidence-coronavirus-spreads-schools/[/quote]
Theorise, not confirm.

This much larger and more in depth study from South Korea shows that children aged 10 and over transmit the virus at the same rate as adults.
wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article

Friends doesn’t seem to appreciate that schools in other countries have implemented mitigation measures.

YANBU with the sentiment but YABU to start yet another thread about it.

iam Yes I agree with what you posted:

While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented

That is the whole point, very few significant outbreaks in schools have been documented. What further evidence do you need?
Many of these schools have been open since March, by now - six months later - we would have seen a big spike in infections if there was going to be one. We have not. And my guess is that we never will.
The virus has spared children, we can read all about this in the link below:

www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/possible-biological-explanations-for-kids-escape-from-covid-19-67273

The type of T cell that dominates early in life is better at repelling this virus, it is exactly why so few children have been ill with the virus. I imagine you must be very comforted by this.

@Friendsoftheearth

although the evidence from contact tracing in schools, and observational data from a number of EU countries suggest that re-opening schools has not been associated with significant increases in community transmission

This was the key point

That's fantastic and I'm sure has been the case for the majority of European countries which have significantly lower community transmission rates than us and have also employed a range of methods including reduced class sizes, distancing, enhanced hygiene and face coverings.

Again, when you look at the report as a whole, I feel it supports what I'm advocating for. Thanks for supplying it.

Friends doesn’t seem to appreciate that schools in other countries have implemented mitigation measures

Outside Asia schools have not implemented many/any measures. Countries like Finland and Sweden. We note the point:

'Elsewhere, masks are less central. In some schools in Germany, students wear them in hallways or bathrooms, but can remove them when seated at their (distantly spaced) desks. Austria reopened with this approach, but abandoned masks for students a few weeks later, when officials observed little spread within schools. In Canada, Denmark, Norway, the United Kingdom, and Sweden, mask wearing was optional for both students and staff'

Focusing on the point that with no mask wearing 'officials observed little spread within schools

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

@Friendsoftheearth

iam Yes I agree with what you posted:

While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented

That is the whole point, very few significant outbreaks in schools have been documented. What further evidence do you need?
Many of these schools have been open since March, by now - six months later - we would have seen a big spike in infections if there was going to be one. We have not. And my guess is that we never will.
The virus has spared children, we can read all about this in the link below:

www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/possible-biological-explanations-for-kids-escape-from-covid-19-67273

The type of T cell that dominates early in life is better at repelling this virus, it is exactly why so few children have been ill with the virus. I imagine you must be very comforted by this.

That is exactly what we thought could be happening way back in March. Further studies have shown how children do get and transmit this virus though.

@Friendsoftheearth

iam

The very first line that summarises the entire report is:

'COVID-19 activity continued to decline or remain stable in England across the majority of surveillance indicators'

So in what way do you consider the threat to be increasing? Surely this is the perfect time to open schools if covid is in decline or stable?

Additionally we do not know what educational settings refers to as this summary is for the last four weeks. Schools have been closed, so how can there be any outbreaks in schools that are closed?

'Table 4: Total number of situations/incidents by institution and PHE Centres over the
past four weeks with the total number in the last week in brackets

The care home stats by far outstrip educational settings - 512 care homes versus 183. Clearly the issue is in care homes

Can you please explain how you think there is a current live outbreak in schools when they are closed? It is a mystery to me.

Um, you know, schools were increasing their capacity at this point but it was still a massive reduction, and yet as you've quoted yourself there were still 183 cases in education settings. How do you think that's going to play out when we're back up to full capacity in two weeks time? I'm continually astounded by the level of ignorance, especially if it isn't deliberate.

The science just does NOT support your theory for PPE and indeed any spread of the virus within schools.

You would have an infinitely strong case IF the schools were producing sound evidence of virus spread, death and sickness, but nowhere in the world has that proved to be the case.

So your case hangs on the bleating of a few disenfranchised teachers with no facts or basis from the science community or elsewhere. There is no case to answer - come back at christmas and we will reassess.

There has been very little transmission between children - read the reports yourself, I could link many more.

Facepalm moment. Children haven't been mixing anywhere near as much as they will when schools fully reopen with no social distancing. Have you also forgotten that secondary schools tend to accommodate young adults rather than small children?

@noblegiraffe

Well done on fighting at the barricades against the bridge dwellers. MN really needs to deal with the trolls on this thread.

@Friendsoftheearth
Austria reopened with this approach, but abandoned masks for students a few weeks later, whenofficials observed little spread within schools.

Austria did stop using masks. They found that their part time study model with half class sizes and social distancing was enough to prevent a growth in transmission rates.

Are you suggesting that we should reopen with half class sizes and social distancing on a part time blended learning model?

[quote Friendsoftheearth]Friends doesn’t seem to appreciate that schools in other countries have implemented mitigation measures

Outside Asia schools have not implemented many/any measures. Countries like Finland and Sweden. We note the point:

'Elsewhere, masks are less central. In some schools in Germany, students wear them in hallways or bathrooms, but can remove them when seated at their (distantly spaced) desks. Austria reopened with this approach, but abandoned masks for students a few weeks later, when officials observed little spread within schools. In Canada, Denmark, Norway, the United Kingdom, and Sweden, mask wearing was optional for both students and staff'

Focusing on the point that with no mask wearing 'officials observed little spread within schools

www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks[/quote]
What is weird is that you’ve selected a bit from that article about masks, yet ignored bits like:

“When Science looked at reopening strategies from South Africa to Finland to Israel, some encouraging patterns emerged. Together, they suggest a combination of keeping student groups small and requiring masks and some social distancing helps keep schools and communities safe”

And

“Several teachers have died of COVID-19 complications in Sweden, where schools did not modify class sizes or make other substantive adjustments.”

Do you mean to keep posting articles that argue the opposite of what you are arguing?