to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

I don't recall any teachers asking for schools to close.
Some did. Some were even outraged at the idea they should be childcare for keyworkers! Luckily my childrens school was incredibly positive. They are even offering wrap around till 6pm. Which means I can go to work and help out other families. Ppe and social distancing is not possible in my line of work either.

Which means I can go to work and help out other families. Ppe and social distancing is not possible in my line of work either.

Does your line of work involve having 6 x 30 people sitting in front of you every day, with windows that only open a couple of inches and another group of 30 immediately outside your room, so the door can't be left open?

@Parker231

What Plan B are the schools offering.

I totally agree with this. Then teachers will tell us the nonsense of how the government has told them to prepare to go back for full time lessons. However in my opinion a good leadership team would be preparing a plan b so if schools were to close again they would be able to provide children with a far better home learning regime than the absolute shite our children were left with these past few months. Before it starts I am not teacher bashing but I am a key worker who has had to adapt to working in a different way and I would like to think my service users have not missed out due to the government lockdown.

@SaltyAndFresh

My dc swimming lessons have started. At one time there are about 30 kids ( three classes of ten) entering the pool side and thirty leaving it. So around 180 kids per evening session.

Kids line up by the teacher and do the register then get in the pool. Teachers are crouched down talking to kids whilst in the pool, the teachers are easily less than one meter away as the pool acoustics make it loud. Not seen one teacher with a face mask on.

Business as usual.

It’s a wonder how any school can open and last (for those teachers that have kids). They will be off half the bloody time with the own kids. I think it would be a lot easier if we all faced reality and admitted it’s not viable.

Everything is so negative, worst case possible imagined from the teachers POV. Assuming parents will send their child to school even with the Covid

It's not that there's a determination to be negative; it's more that no one knows more acutely how tightly squeezed schools have been for years than teachers. Parents have been shielded from the realities, and probably like to pretend that everything's rosy. Teachers know that it is not. And there are lots of possibly well-meaning, possibly self-interested, parents offering up ideas that just won't work in practice. I refer you back to the infamous thread where the (serious) suggestion was made that each primary child has their own bucket of water in the classroom for hand-washing. Teachers were told they didn't have enough of a "can-do" attitude when they pointed out just how ludicrous that idea was.

And the assumption (or rather, fear) that parents will send their children in with Covid is based on hard experience of it happening with plenty of other illnesses. It happens - very frequently and there is nothing to suppose that it won't happen this term, when the pressure for parents to get back to work themselves is even greater. My own school has already had two children sent in when family members were ill with suspected Covid (back when you couldn't get tested for sure). Just because you don't think you would do that, rest assured there are plenty of people who would.

@lamnothrone
What measures do you want and that you claim scotland are doing compared to england
Re; cleaning rightly or wrongly i would happily pay for some cleaning supplies to school if needed or send my son in with his own sanitiser etc
But all businesses and places are having to fund these extra items not just schools
The op has just posted for a response
Obviously if schools have to close sue to the virus imc teachers being ill pr there dc or pupils, people will understand none of us want this and we can only plan so much
Some employers are flexible others are not so everyone situation is unique ,
Its a pandemic these are unusual times and all we can do is try to gwt through it and that should be together
As a working parent you should appreciate as well why people need schools back and childcare etc its shit for all of us

Schools and hospitals or care homes are not the same thing, do not run in the same way and do not serve the same function in society. Your 'what about...' style arguments end up just being strawmen that distract from making any real progress to a solution for the issues being raised. Unless that's your aim, I don't see the purpose of offering out those strawmen.

Refusing to accept any middle ground/compromise also prevent any real progress or solution.

I get that change is scary, but most of us have done this already. It's pull on your big pants time I'm afraid.

My goodness OP you sound just like my unsympathetic and unreasonable boss who told me at the start of lockdown to make sure I had a Plan b and to just treat the schools closing 'like the summer holidays' !!!!!

@madcow88
if schools were to close again they would be able to provide children with a far better home learning regime than the absolute shite our children were left with these past few months.

Unfortunately, the Government suspended the curriculum and converted all schools into childcare settings. They removed the legal responsibility to teach and so there were no clear expectations or uniformity in remote learning. In fact, there was no requirement for remote learning whatsoever. Most schools did offer something although, given the lack of expectations or guidelines, this did vary in quality and consistency. There was also no legal requirement for parents to ensure their child(ren) completed the work they had been set.

If schools needed to close again, for any reason, there are now the beginnings of guidelines for remote learning which should make the whole process smoother and more uniformed. With that, however, will also come the expectation from the Government that the parent will ensure their child(ren) engage with the remote learning and complete it.

@CallmeAngelina

Everything is so negative, worst case possible imagined from the teachers POV. Assuming parents will send their child to school even with the Covid

It's not that there's a determination to be negative; it's more that no one knows more acutely how tightly squeezed schools have been for years than teachers. Parents have been shielded from the realities, and probably like to pretend that everything's rosy. Teachers know that it is not. And there are lots of possibly well-meaning, possibly self-interested, parents offering up ideas that just won't work in practice. I refer you back to the infamous thread where the (serious) suggestion was made that each primary child has their own bucket of water in the classroom for hand-washing. Teachers were told they didn't have enough of a "can-do" attitude when they pointed out just how ludicrous that idea was.

And the assumption (or rather, fear) that parents will send their children in with Covid is based on hard experience of it happening with plenty of other illnesses. It happens - very frequently and there is nothing to suppose that it won't happen this term, when the pressure for parents to get back to work themselves is even greater. My own school has already had two children sent in when family members were ill with suspected Covid (back when you couldn't get tested for sure). Just because you don't think you would do that, rest assured there are plenty of people who would.

To be honest. Why does nobody mention this isn’t great that the gov have not stepped up. But when they realise things have not gone to plan I think they will have to. What happens usually when multiple teachers call in sick? They gov will soon learn.

Instead I hear people saying things like baby sitting service.... well yes to some extent it’s true. It’s how it’s been for years. It’s still not going to solve the lack of PPE is it!
I just don’t know how we can all function isolating and testing every time we have a cough... what a bloody life!

@joan12 - many of us parents have felt utterly abandoned right now by the cahms service.

We were overdue a routine check up pre lockdown for one of ours, who is on controlled drugs. He is supposed to have regular checkups. We can do height and weight at home for the video conference, but who does his blood pressure?

But we accept that right now this is the imperfect service we have. I'm not banging on the door of cahms demanding that they provide the service that they are supposed to, because I understand that even before covid there was a huge funding deficit which meant many, many children are crying out for the service.

Now I am being told that children are being referred due to covid related anxieties. Perhaps if we stopped hiding the reality of it for them, they would better understand and have the resilience they need to get through this.

A lot of this conflict is down to the housing market and general impoverishment of everyone working.

I really do not understand what the problem is with at the very least giving schools the capability and right to check temperatures of anyone coming In the building, as I understand is done in other countries. It’s not a catch-all but it might help. Can anyone explain that problem to me? I also don’t see why they shouldn’t test everyone once a week if those fast tests do indeed work. Testing in Britain has been a fiasco.

@WeakAsIAm

Schools and hospitals or care homes are not the same thing, do not run in the same way and do not serve the same function in society. Your 'what about...' style arguments end up just being strawmen that distract from making any real progress to a solution for the issues being raised. Unless that's your aim, I don't see the purpose of offering out those strawmen.

Refusing to accept any middle ground/compromise also prevent any real progress or solution.

I get that change is scary, but most of us have done this already. It's pull on your big pants time I'm afraid.

I'm entirely happy to accept a compromise and feel that I've been actively working towards a middle ground so I'm not sure quite what you mean here.

Equally, as I've already said several times, I've been working throughout lockdown through digital learning and the care of key worker children and been back in school with my class since the beginning of June. Again, I'm not sure why you suggest that putting my big pants on will occur in September. I assure you: they've been on the entire time.

What I don't understand is why everyone wants schools to go back 'as normal' when nothing else is?

We cannot hide from our children the reality of a pandemic, we would be doing them a great disservice to pretend everything is ok when they cannot give their grandparents a hug, when they should not have sleepover parties with a group of friends.

My children have had to accept that right now their extra curricular clubs will not be running in the same way right now.

So why is it so hard for people to understand that schools cannot go back in the same way as before?

@minisoksmakehardwork our school isn't going back the same as before there are changes

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss what an insulting comment ! No of course school isn't childcare ! (I'm so sick of reading this comment constantly on various forums) but it's perfectly reasonable when you have children to assume that they will attend school 42 weeks of the year and that work can be arranged around this. Maybe we should all be on benefits instead ?!

@Backtobasics5

It’s a wonder how any school can open and last (for those teachers that have kids). They will be off half the bloody time with the own kids. I think it would be a lot easier if we all faced reality and admitted it’s not viable.

As things stand, you're right. My DH and I will put our 'bloody kids' first because we're their parents.

@SaltyAndFresh rightly so. There’s 2 of you. So one of you can get a job in another field.

Can people realise that some teachers are 50 plus some are grandparents some have young children.

You've seen how the cashiers are protected at the supermarket.

Have you seen the way secondary school children move around a school within the day?

I worked in a school where a few years ago a child got suspended for spitting on a member of staff from 2 stories above.

Even if you somehow magically improve the hygiene of an entire secondary school they then go home to mix with their families.

I've said to my friends it will be a miracle if we get through September, October, November and December without myself getting it OR A NORMAL COUGH OR COLD, my daughters primary school bubble getting it, her school closing or my school closing, or her getting it OR COLD SYMPTOMS!

I work in a different school to DD so neither of us can get ill, we would have to be off if we had a cold/ flu symptoms. Or her school shutting or my school shutting.

It's going to be flu season too

I totally sympathise with @SaltyAndFresh she won't have a face mask or visor or screen around her desk. She'll have to touch all the door handles. Kids are disgusting with hygiene btw

@Notfeelinggreattoday
I've posted this a couple of times so it's a copy and paste from another of my posts. I'm not saying all of these things are required: just things to consider.

The measures depend on where you are coming from.

If you want to decrease the likelihood of closures, greater measures need to exist in the classroom and, as the scientific advisors have stated, in the community itself.

School-based measures could be secure funding for enhanced cleaning, the use of visors or windowed face coverings or screens to help reduce transmission, the tightening of restrictions on the attendance of unwell children, etc.

Community-based measures could be things like better distancing for families and their children, possible restrictions on how open our society is (as stated by the scientific advisors) and making it easier for parents to take leave to care for an unwell child or one who is having to isolate due to a positive result from someone else in the classroom (this would include Government support for the businesses that this affected).

If you want to decrease the disruption but not the likelihood then there needs to be support and funding put in place to ensure that all students can access online learning platforms. This includes investment in technology (that was said was coming but didn't) and in training for staff and online tutorials for parents to help them access a digital platform such as Google Classroom

The thing is though, schools ARE going back. They already have in Scotland. They have in other counties. They never shut in Sweden.

Nurseries have stayed open with zero PPE and much closer contact, where are the outbreaks?

All this contempt and push back, but it’s pretty clear schools will be opening and not closing again unless it’s the absolute last resort.

I try to tell myself that the vast majority of teachers are nothing like those on MN. Just like the vast majority of people can eat more than a slice of a Dominos, are not violently opposed to toilet brushes and can’t make a chicken last for a week.

We are seeing a few bad apples, shouting loudly. Ignore.

@lamnothrone do we really have to only rely on goverment to tell us everything surely if schiools closed as a provider of education you do what you can to still educate and as a responsible parent you do your best to make sure tour child engages
The curriculum was likely stopped aa we were in the beginning of a pandemic and they knew schools were not already for online learning of the whole curriculum or parents able to homeschool
But some schools appeared to not bother at all

Does your line of work involve having 6 x 30 people sitting in front of you every day, with windows that only open a couple of inches and another group of 30 immediately outside your room, so the door can't be left open?

What school is this?? Sorry op but my childrens school is well prepared. What is wrong with your windows?? I'd be more concerned if there was a fire!My work is no less risky than yours, I just happen to work with adults. Stop trying to look for reasons why you're worse off than everyone else.

parents are within their rights to create informal bubbles to exchange childcare if a school closed.
If it's one school only, maybe, not in a local lockdown.
Anyway the OP is living in cloud cuckoo land if they think we all have any access at all to childcare that isn't school/nursery/other things that will close and if they think our employers will allow us to suddenly reduce our hours at a day's notice.
If schools weren't childcare, there would be widespread provision of other childcare for primary aged children.