to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

I agree, I think this is a deliberate plan of divide and conquer, easily attainable, because it's fairly bloody standard, this mistrust and lack of good faith, let alone respect, between parent and teachers/school.

So easy to manipulate for their own nasty little purposes.

Meanwhile, our kids are suffering. Badly.

But schools will,only close if there are outbreaks of Covid.
And there are less likely to be outbreaks if they have the resources in place to mitigate against them- cleaning, distancing, PPE.
So why is everyone against such measures?

@FrippEnos

SueEllenMishke Why is nobody concerned that it will be women that are impacted most by this. They will be the ones sacrificing their careers. Why aren't more people angry about this?

Apparently teachers are not allowed to be angry that schools may have to close due to inadequate safety measures.

Go figure.

Too right.

@upsidedownwavylegs

* *@Venicelover*

If you choose to have a family then between you it is necessary to ensure that you have provision for childcare. If you outsource that and something such as this occurs then you have to face the issue that one of you needs to be there for the children if no one else is available.

We both have well paid careers and are university-educated but when our kids were small we worked our roles around the needs of the family. If necessary, in this type of circumstance one of us would have had no option but to put their career on hold to look after the kids, which were our first priority.

Perhaps other would choose differently, but my point is that we all have choices, some of which are not particularly palatable.*

You come across as really, exceptionally hard of thinking. Do you realise that ‘one of you being there for the children’ in these circumstances where no other childcare option is available would mean poverty? You know, no food, homelessness? Hardly putting the children ‘top of the agenda’.

Maybe you missed my post where I explained that before we had kids we made sure that we didn't need two salaries to fund the family?

We only moved to a house where we did when the kids were in secondary school.

My point is that we all make choices and sometimes when the shit hits the fan we have to live with choices that now don't suit. It doesn't have to be a pandemic it could be any one of a hundred scenarios that would impact on needing childcare.

If anticipating that and planning housing/careers accordingly, makes me holier than though, so be it. We refer to call it forward planning and thinking 'what if' before we jump in with both feet.

Tough, that is life, it really isn't anyone's fault it is just the way it is.

@FrippEnos

SueEllenMishke Why is nobody concerned that it will be women that are impacted most by this. They will be the ones sacrificing their careers. Why aren't more people angry about this?

Apparently teachers are not allowed to be angry that schools may have to close due to inadequate safety measures.

Go figure.

I will be teaching university students from September......PPE hasn't even featured in the discussions my department have been having around delivery

@Venicelover

I agree with the OP.

School is not a babysitting service.

Aside from lone parents, everyone makes the choice to have a lifestyle that needs two salaries whilst the children are young enough to need supervision. Therefore, if you make that choice then you have a plan B and C in place for situations that could arise.

I get that this is unprecedented, but that is life I am afraid.

Seriously? How many people can actually say they made their career and childcare decisions based on what might happen in a global pandemic?! We have plans in place to cover our child’s occasional sickness, for holidays, for temporary job loss, we have life insurance and critical illness cover. But no-one bases their life’s decisions on whether there will be a once in a lifetime worldwide event like this.

Imagine - you want to work, but you choose not to have a career, you stay at home twiddling your thumbs for years while your children are at school, you’re bored, unfulfilled, you feel like you’re failing to contribute to the household income, you’re wasting your brains and talents but then on your deathbed you think, well at least if there had been a global pandemic, I would have been available to homeschool!

Honest to god, I can’t decide if you’re cataclysmic stupid, utterly misogynistic or just a troll.

Has no one noticed that the teaching workforce is predominantly female so the mostly male government is sending a mostly female workforce into unsafe working conditions with no mitigation.

And Mumsnet think that teachers should just suck it up.

Depressing.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@Bananabread8 Please point me to the bit of the law that says its illegal to send a child into school without a negative covid test if they have symptoms? Because IF it exists it would save a lot of worrying by teachers.

(I'll save you time, there is no such law).[/quote]
I didn’t say there was currently a law did I. I’m sorry but if you are a teacher go and get a job in Tesco or something. Because you are not the only ones at risk! A mask and gloves are not some sort of magical super powers. Too many entitled teachers expecting miracles.

Plenary of nurses got told “we choose our path and we knew what we signed up for”.
Leave your profession if needs be! Other professionals will have done the same!

Because I can assure you a clap didn’t save us!! I still caught the COVID-19 and there’s nothing to say I couldn’t catch it again regardless of testing.... unless I’m going to do it on a weekly basis.

@NewKittyMeow - can you read? That is not what happened.

@noblegiraffe Absolutely. On another thread when I was concerned about flooding in front of teenagers due to having just one break a day come Sept, I was told that I had problem as it was unnatural that a tampon wouldn’t last 6 hours.

You’d expect more empathy from women.

I will be teaching university students from September......PPE hasn't even featured in the discussions my department have been having around delivery

Will you be about 1m away from your students at all times?

I don’t know spaces your lectures are given in?

And I caught Covid too! It's not a competition you know.

@Bananabread8

You did say there was a law that meant parents couldn't do what I described. Who else could parents be in trouble with?

You're naive and don't understand how the process will work with symptomatic children in school.

I will stop engaging with you now because you are rude.

Newkittymeow - all of what you have said and then some.

If I hear the phrase "school is not a babysitting service" one more time.....!

@noblegiraffe

I will be teaching university students from September......PPE hasn't even featured in the discussions my department have been having around delivery

Will you be about 1m away from your students at all times?

I don’t know spaces your lectures are given in?

It's a discussion based course. I will not be able to maintain SD to facilitate this. Plus I will be teaching different groups travelling from large geographical areas.... no bubbles for me.

For all those people who have pointed out their efforts. My point is I dont recall anyone asking for the closure of care homes. It is completely seperate to people who actually helped and went that extra 100miles! The deaths were not in the schools. They were in the care homes.

SueEllenMishke

I will be teaching university students from September......PPE hasn't even featured in the discussions my department have been having around delivery

From a small sample of university students around the uk. (ex pupils that keep in touch).

Many universities are having online lectures with practical work being booked in advance and limited numbers at a time.

You could ask your uni to do the same.

Children are not systematic a lot of the time. They are thought to be the carriers. Other wise there would of been a huge amount of poorly children??

@Sometimeswinning

For all those people who have pointed out their efforts. My point is I dont recall anyone asking for the closure of care homes. It is completely seperate to people who actually helped and went that extra 100miles! The deaths were not in the schools. They were in the care homes.

I don't recall any teachers asking for schools to close. I can recall many parents asking for schools to close.

Surely the discussion could be zoom based? Is there a reason for face to face interaction?

@Dragonsanddinosaurs

I find the can't do attitude that seems to be displayed by a lot of teachers on here really depressing. I'm sure a lot of NHS staff were terrified going to work during the worst of it, when there were headlines about doctors and nurses dying weekly, but they got on with it. The same with the emergency services. As a PP pointed out the police clearly can't socially distance, and use PPE when they are dealing with anyone violent, which they do on a regular basis. Children need teaching, and while this clearly come with some risk, teaching is an important job, and needs to be done.

@Dragonsanddinosaurs

I’ve said this in another thread, but what non-teachers see as a “can’t do” attitude is teachers having the knowledge of what works in their school and what doesn’t. On top of that, all schools are different, so what works in my school won’t work in another.

I’ve had to redesign the entire course I teach and move a chunk of it to work online, without a teacher, and translate it into a few different languages as I won’t be there to help them through the lesson face to face, if schools do close even for a short period. Or if I’m off sick, as I’m the only person in my school who teaches my subject. (Yay cutbacks!)

I’ve rearranged my classroom so my students are as far away as possible from each other. Still not ideal, they’ll be within a metre of each other, but better than before.

However, maybe you can help me and my can’t-do attitude with these problems.

1. Ventilation: I’ve been allocated a classroom with no windows or other ventilation. I’ve asked to move to another classroom, but they’re all full. How do I “can-do” some windows into my classroom? The door opens out into a windowless corridor, although there is a door to the outside about 10 meters down.

2. Social distancing: see above. The students are going to be within 1 metre of other. Short of breaking down the walls I don’t know what to do.

3. Masks: if our head says no, we can’t wear them. We have asked them to consider masks for teachers and students, and we’re waiting to hear back.

Regardless though, I’ll be there in September, and hoping that my schools, and my dc’s 2 different schools have opened safely enough that closures don’t happen, because I don’t have a plan B that isn’t “curl up in a ball and wail.”

And for what it’s worth, we have enough in savings and are paid enough that one of us could quit work - but what I don’t have is the skills to teach a 5 year old with suspected ADHD due to a very rare genetic illness. Silly me, not planning for that, eh?! If only I was as smart and forward planning as you!

@FrippEnos

SueEllenMishke

I will be teaching university students from September......PPE hasn't even featured in the discussions my department have been having around delivery

From a small sample of university students around the uk. (ex pupils that keep in touch).

Many universities are having online lectures with practical work being booked in advance and limited numbers at a time.

You could ask your uni to do the same.

Hahaha nice one. I don't get to make that decision. We are doing a mixture of in person and remote learning. That is what is in the best interest of the students and their learning.

You've obviously missed the numerous threads slagging off academics and universities for resorting to online learning....

SueEllen that sounds shit and definitely should be up for more discussion

@WhereTheCrawdadsSing

Can anyone please explain why teachers aren't allowed PPE? If this is causing such a fight on here and possibly elsewhere, wouldn't this be part of the solution? Surely parents who need their dcs to go back to school would prefer their dcs be taught by teachers in all the PPE, than not at all?

I think it has been done in other countries with no disastrous effects.

The use of PPE is complex and effectiveness is very dependent on the setting and the user. It’s uncomfortable and unless fitted properly you will fiddle with it. Its largely designed to be put on once for a long time or to be used and disposed of frequently.

I’m not sure many experts see it as the best option in an school setting. Where it would need to be worn all day with minimal adjustment. Children and young people just won’t be able to sustain the behaviour needed to make it effective. As many of the police officers are saying, even though they have been issued with it they don’t really use it except for a short time in some circumstances.

The best option for schools will be cleaning and hand washing. Schools, teachers and pupils are going to have to find new routines to incorporate that into their day.

If we need to resource anything it should be cleaning products , soap and sanitiser. If funds are low this should go into deprived areas. I’m sure everyone will scream and bleat about paying for something they use. But not everything needs to be publicly funded for all.