to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

TheCOVID guidance specifically says that we can NOT ask for proof of a negative test result

Oh the pandemic deniers got their arses handed to them on the other thread so they’ve moved to this one I see.

I'm not a police officer although I work with lots of them. I previously was in immigration though which is why I have experience of arresting people and know you can't arrest people without getting up close and risk getting spat at.

And the police don't have better protection than you op. Yes they get issued with PPE but I can assure you the suspects don't wait around for them to put it on before wrestling them to the ground.

@lifeafter50
There are no cushier jobs out there that they are qualified for

Before I moved into teaching, I worked in finance on a significantly higher wage and fewer hours. I left because I wanted to feel that I was doing something impactful. And I do: I love my job and have intention of leaving. But don't for a second believe that teachers don't have other options: the poor retention rate is evidence enough of this.

@Wishforanishwishdiash

OP, this is a really nasty thread. We all know this, are losing sleep over this, and your contempt for parents is nothing short of cruel. We can't all keep nannies on retainer "just in case", and not all of us have family nearby on call.

School is childcare, but it is not only childcare. We have organised our society and working lives around schools being open 9-3:30, and the Plan B was to cover normal illness, school holidays and after school club. School is actually a pretty rubbish set up for education - learning with 30 random same-age peers isn't all that efficient for education. I homeschooled a year once while we travelled and managed the curriculum in a couple months. Of course we are all responsible for our own children, but the safety net in this country is not big enough to hold us all if we have to quit our jobs.

It is not reasonable for us to walk around with a Plan B in case schools shut. I would love if schools would take precautions and announce my child can only go in two days a week. If so, I would hire a part time nanny ASAP. It doesn't make sense for me to pay a nanny if schools are open. I do not have family nearby. So I wait, nervously, for schools to close and worry about quitting my job.

I would love a stable Plan B, I have no idea what that will be, and typically I am an excellent Plan B, C, and D person. OP, I think YOU are in the wrong job.You don't sound very kind, you sound mean and goady. I hope you are not my child's teacher.

This!

ZigZagPlant

That sounds good - so what’s the issue?

The issue is that more could be done. PPE to start with.
More equipment for practical lessons.
Money for more TAs/LMs or volunteers.
More funding for cleaning, hand sanitiser etc.

But what should be coming from this is a change about education in the UK.
Better facilities, smaller classes.
People actually giving a fuck about teachers and not seeing them as the enemy.
The government being brought to book on its incompetence.

Point the finger of blame at those that it should be pointed at.

Look at the state of the exam results, 5 months to sort it and ofqual is trying to point the blame at teachers for doing what was asked of them.

Re your second point, is this not already enshrined in the Covid guidance and applies to the whole of England?

No. Schools have been explicitly told they cannot ask for proof. Whatever the parent says we have to accept as the truth. Parents will lie and pretend they had a test, because they just want their child back in school.

I think most parents think their child is going into a socially distant classroom like the pictures the media keeps showing.

@Maryann1975

Totally agree. I’ve said it on the thread too. Early years workers have not been afforded any protection, nor have they had they privilege of teachers.

@motherrunner. I'm in the same boat. Secondary teacher, ex is a college lecturer. No family support at all as both families live in different counties. Even if they lived nearby grandparents are disabled or nearly 90! We can split the time off between us but there is no other solution .

@SueEllenMishke

What we did do as part of a couple was to negotiate our hours/jobs to work around any eventuality.

So you're saying you actually planned for a pandemic and schools closing??

No, of course not, but I didn't go back to work until I had plans in place for any eventuality.

We planned it so that we didn't need two salaries to service our mortgage until the kids were at secondary school. Prior to that in this kind of epidemic, the lower earner would have taken unpaid leave or in extremis, given up work.

We kept the childcare arrangments in house so that we did not need to rely on family or friends. That is our responsibility not anyone else's. School is for educating children not babysitting them.

@Hercwasonaroll

Social distancing - no it’s not possible in a classroom. But it’s not in a restaurant, hospital, supermarket, nursery, care home.

Restaurants do social distancing apart from dropping down food.

As for what I'd be happy with:

1. More funding for cleaning, hand gel stations and cleaners.
2. Acknowledgement that my room isn't safe.
3. Option to wear masks.
4. Fund laptops for students.

@HandsOffMyRights Oak is being expanded over the summer and will go up to y11. It's not perfect and doesn't include every subject but it is a start.

Thanks.

I know some teachers who were involved in the original lessons (which they did over the Easter holidays) and so I do think it has a place - will take another look.

OP clearly didn’t watch the news in the beginning of the pandemic where the lack of PPE for carers, healthcare workers etc was discussed

Patronising @ZigZagPlant. Of course I did. I campaigned FOR PPE and contributed to crowdfunding to source it, as angry as I was that it should never have been for the general public to do so.

Are seriously saying that because frontline workers didn't have adequate PPE at the start of the pandemic (in the UK) teachers should now therefore accept it's their turn to take the risk? Because that's what I'm extrapolating from your comment.

if you choose to have them the buck does stop with you under any and all circumstances

Not true. The buck stops with all of us. If parents can't afford to clothe, house, feed, educate their children, we all pay the bill for this. First, in terms of benefits. Second, in terms of lost tax income including due to loss of career progression for parents forced to quit or put their careers on hold. Third, in terms of social services interventions where parents and children aren't coping and there is neglect and abuse. Fourth, in terms of the long-term social consequences including increases in inequality and mental health issues.

So the buck doesn't stop with parents unless you are incredibly short-sighted. "I'm all right, Jack" (true in our case) simply doesn't cut it here.

Totally agree @Wishforanishwishdiash.

You've put it much better than I could have.

Parents need to have a Plan B. Teachers did not want to place this responsibility on parents but the Gov has forced this situation with their farcical Covid secure guidelines.

I am a teacher and a parent. I know the frustration of childcare. Teachers can not be flexible with their working and me personally, I have no-one to share childcare with except DH who is also a teacher.

As I have said upthread if we are required to be off work due to bubble closure/family isolation it will have a knock on effect in our own schools. This is why teachers are pushing for a safer return. Schools can not stay open unless their staff are healthy. Parents please work with us. We are parents too.

Early years have been fantastic throughout. Private nurseries did close completely for a while.

However have they been exposed to 150 children a day? My local one has bubbles of 8.

I don't think primary teachers are quite so worried because their bubbles are (mostly) 30. At secondary teachers aren't in the bubbles. Weekly I'll see approx 450 students.

[quote FlySheMust]@allFrippEnos

I saw REM at the NEC. They were fab.[/quote]
Its a fantastic venue.

A couple of my mates have been in support groups there.

[quote Iamnotthe1]@lifeafter50
There are no cushier jobs out there that they are qualified for

Before I moved into teaching, I worked in finance on a significantly higher wage and fewer hours. I left because I wanted to feel that I was doing something impactful. And I do: I love my job and have intention of leaving. But don't for a second believe that teachers don't have other options: the poor retention rate is evidence enough of this.[/quote]
But you can't really believe that it would be as easy for someone who had been a teacher since 22 to move into a high-paid finance job as it is to move the other way? DH was a management consultant before he was a teacher, he probably couldn't get back into management consultancy having not worked it in for 6 years, realistically his colleagues that have only ever been teachers wouldn't have a shot.

Are seriously saying that because frontline workers didn't have adequate PPE at the start of the pandemic (in the UK) teachers should now therefore accept it's their turn to take the risk? Because that's what I'm extrapolating from your comment.

No. I’m saying that working conditions haven’t been perfect for a lot of people. They still aren’t. But not working hasn’t been an option for them.

@Hercwasonaroll

Re your second point, is this not already enshrined in the Covid guidance and applies to the whole of England?

No. Schools have been explicitly told they cannot ask for proof. Whatever the parent says we have to accept as the truth. Parents will lie and pretend they had a test, because they just want their child back in school.

I think most parents think their child is going into a socially distant classroom like the pictures the media keeps showing.

I work in a big hospital with all sorts of people working there. All we have is people's words that their tests results come back negative when they are symptomatic. Obviously they are on some system somewhere but no one is allowed to look at them bar the swabbing team (sackable offence) who tell the staff member.

Hospital staff only have a paper mask to wear. The patients don't wear them so we are protecting the patients but no one is protecting us. And this only came in once covid 2as well under way. For a long time we were treating patients without anything. I'm sure masks will come into schools once a few outbreaks occur.

There isn't some conspiracy against teachers. This is what life is like for lots of people. A lot of things are just based on doing the right thing.

@Nicknacky

VeniceLover Again, good for you.

Not possible here. Police officer and company owner. I’m not giving up or comprising the career I had long before I had children for a temporary problem.

When having children impossible to have plan a,b,c,d,e,f in place. Especially in the once in a lifetime pandemic.

It really isn't, if they are top of the agenda.

You don't want to compromise your plans........it is possible, but not an option you want, so don't dress it up any other way.

VeniceLover I’m intrigued, how can I compromise my plans? (I don’t even realise I had any)!

@Nicknacky

Oh and teachers in both my daughters schools are allowed PPE. Youngest teacher isn’t wearing it though.

I can’t understand who decides Who has given Permission for some schools to use PPE and some not? You would think it’s compulsory or not across the board.

@Hardbackwriter
But you can't really believe that it would be as easy for someone who had been a teacher since 22 to move into a high-paid finance job as it is to move the other way?

Oh gosh, absolutely not. I agree completely - just using my personal example as proof that the lie about 'cushier jobs' was, in fact, a lie. Although, as I said, the retention crisis in education proves that enough for me - all those former teachers are going somewhere...

Prior to that in this kind of epidemic, the lower earner would have taken unpaid leave or in extremis, given up work.

What if the lower earner loves their career? Has put a lot of time and effort into it?
I'm the lower earner in my relationship- I'm a university academic. I have a PhD and have invested so much in my career.
If I take any kind of break that's my career over .... I'm not prepared to accept that.

Plus, children need to be educated. This is a social justice issue. Denying a whole generation of a proper education would be an absolute disgrace.