to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

"School are not there for parents economic convenience"
No they are there to deliver education and some parents are getting a little fed up that their children aren't getting it.
The world has covid, I work from home normally but due to covid I have had to go into work as a key worker. What do you propose we cease to education children for the duration? Until we have a vaccination 2/3 years? Maybe more.

Online teaching was dire for my dd. If schools do shut again and moves to remote learning this area really needs to be improved.

New guidelines are clearer on this. There's a big focus on using Oak Academy. Have a look at their lessons and see what you think.

@hammeringinmyhead
Cynically, none of these things have any influence on how much tax the kids' parents pay

That's very true. It's such a shame that we've all had to become so cynical.

@BellsaRinging

OP you're giving teachers a very bad name. You seem to lack critical thinking skills and empathy. I dont believe you speak for most, or even a significant proportion, of the profession. At least I really hope you don't.
The OP doesn't.
I am a teacher - in RL, and probably the silent majority on MN - teachers care about educating and their pupils, rather than seeing it as a job with cushy perks and a good pension and protected rights that the private sector has never had. And of course the recourse we regularly hear refrained on here by the usual suspects 'go off with stress'.
S/he dies not speak for us -we want to get back into school and educate the children, not look for any loophole to avoid it.

How will you be making reasonable adjustments for disabled children who are unable to follow the rules?

*OK. So say the teacher in the class next door is ill, so her 32 pupils need a teacher. I am in my separate class, with 33. It is 8.30 am, every teacher is with their own class. Nobody is on a break, and every child comes to school for the same times, so there isn't an opportunity to e.g. teach that class in a 'second shift' from 3.30-9.

How is that class covered?

Not to mention the fact that the other class is a separate bubble, so in fact the classes cannot merge for infection control purposes.....*

Yeah you're right it's impossible, when I'm at work if the patient next to mine doesn't have a nurse because they're off sick then fuck them. Not getting antibiotics? - not my problem, needs fluids? - who cares, deteriorating? - so what!!!
I can't go between patients we have infection control too (we've always had it).
oh no wait I change PPE , wash my hands and deliver care to both. Oh and I do it for 12 hour shifts not just a 50 min lesson.

Dick measuring contests with the phallically challenged. Jog on

@StealthPolarBear

"Are those services usually registered? Becasue as part of the local north west lockdown people are only permitted to enter your home if they are registered under part 3 of the childcare act." Really? Anyone at all under any circumstances?

Well obviously others are allowed to enter (carers, plumbers, haridressers) but in terms of childcare (you know the topic of this thread) it must be someone registered. Believe me I, and basically every working parent I know, has combed through the guidance and the actual legislation on this. For purposes of childcare you can only enter someones home if they are registered or if you have a support bubble with them (so only applies to single parent households i believe). People from other households can provide childcare in outdoor public areas if appropriately social distanced so the kids can spend 12 hours in the park with grandma

Oh and we were automatically breaking the law when the local lockdown started becasue we found out whilst both me and DP were at work on night shifts and ds was at his grandparents. I believe the local lockdown was announced 3 hours before it came into effect so little time to plan anything.

none of these things have any influence on how much tax the kids' parents pay

That's very true. It's such a shame that we've all had to become so cynical.

We need people (including parents) to pay tax to fund, among other things, schools and hospitals. In the UK, 74% of mothers work. If even 10% have to quit their jobs due to lack of childcare, that's going to be very expensive for the government. So you're right, the government is being cynical in terms of framing this as being about children's education. But ultimately we need that tax revenue.

How will you be making reasonable adjustments for disabled children who are unable to follow the rules?

I genuinely have no idea. When reasonable adjustments result in children putting themselves and others into more danger.

I was saying on an earlier thread we had students who were allowed to move seats, leave the room etc and it's on their EHCP. However this can't happen now.

If it is a Primary School that is 6 hours not 50 mins @WeakAsIAm. You also mention PPE, something that teachers don’t have and have expressly been told in the guidance they should not use.

Sorry I haven't RTFT - am in USA so don't want to step into the debate - but OP says "no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed)" in schools? Is this true - teachers can't wear PPE/masks? What about students?

My two DC are both going back, one full time and one two days a week, and both schools (private and state) are setting mandatory mask requirements for all staff and students, no exceptions. Anyone who can't or won't wear a mask gets to do online learning. No one but staff or students is allowed to enter either building, as well. I can't believe teachers aren't allowed even to wear a mask??

@WeakAsIAm

And how would you adapt that if yout patient couldn't be left alone for any period of time and, if you did leave them alone, you could/would be dismissed?

Or do you recognise that your analogy isn't a copy and paste job over the top of schools as both centres function very differently?

Yeah you're right it's impossible, when I'm at work if the patient next to mine doesn't have a nurse because they're off sick then fuck them. Not getting antibiotics? - not my problem, needs fluids? - who cares, deteriorating? - so what!!!
I can't go between patients we have infection control too (we've always had it).
oh no wait I change PPE , wash my hands and deliver care to both. Oh and I do it for 12 hour shifts not just a 50 min lesson.

Dick measuring contests with the phallically challenged. Jog on

You sound delightful.

On the off chance you're being sincere, please suggest what happens in the scenario described above? Every teacher is teaching their own class, you can't fit more children into the room. You can't leave the children alone for 50 minutes? What would your solution be? Washing my hands and running between classrooms isn't going to cut it unfortunately.

@Reluctantcavedweller

none of these things have any influence on how much tax the kids' parents pay

That's very true. It's such a shame that we've all had to become so cynical.

We need people (including parents) to pay tax to fund, among other things, schools and hospitals. In the UK, 74% of mothers work. If even 10% have to quit their jobs due to lack of childcare, that's going to be very expensive for the government. So you're right, the government is being cynical in terms of framing this as being about children's education. But ultimately we need that tax revenue.

Yes, exactly. Teachers keep saying the government won't fund schools through this because they won't pay for things that benefit the children, like the laptops and more TAs scenarios, but if we get to Christmas and the cupboard is bare then I think they will start to desperately scrabble for a solution.

If it is a Primary School that is 6 hours not 50 mins @WeakAsIAm. You also mention PPE, something that teachers don’t have and have expressly been told in the guidance they should not use.

Yeah I have PPE because I can't wash, deliver medication, change dressings etc etc from behind a desk.

Teachers do not work continuously for 6 hours in the same room without a break. Health professionals do every day across the country.

[quote Iamnotthe1]@askmehowiknow

I definitely don't know that. Furthermore, if you are right then we'll have much bigger issues to deal with given the height the second wave would be with no isolation controls. After all, according to predictive models, the estimate is that only around 6% of the population has had the virus thus far.[/quote]
You really honestly think the country will continue with isolating all contacts for 14 days?!

I mean I'd be in full pay and would love the time at home! Same as you I assume.

You think our fragile economy would cope?

You think kids would cope with another school year interrupted by a virus that is virtually no risk for them?

Have you seen the news? The economy is shit. Exam results are shit. We can't do this anymore. Sorry!

@Reluctantcavedweller
So you're right, the government is being cynical in terms of framing this as being about children's education.

The Government is being dishonest and manipulative in terms of how they are framing this. That's fine - it's nothing new - but I'm glad some people are being open about it.

@WeakAsIAm

If it is a Primary School that is 6 hours not 50 mins @WeakAsIAm. You also mention PPE, something that teachers don’t have and have expressly been told in the guidance they should not use.

Yeah I have PPE because I can't wash, deliver medication, change dressings etc etc from behind a desk.

Teachers do not work continuously for 6 hours in the same room without a break. Health professionals do every day across the country.

You're comparing two jobs that work in very different ways. It's utterly pointless and doesn't help this situation at all.

Primary School teachers are being asked in some instances to do 6 hours without break, which is legal. Lunches are being served in class which the teacher will supervise. Yes they will go out of the classroom but that will be when they take the pupils to their designated area of the playground.

Let's been honest here....The natural consequence of what the OP and many on here are advocating is that we move back to a single-earner household model so there is always a parent at home to look after the children...All the "parents should parent" rubbish essentially boils down to this.

Aside from the message this gives to girls in a society where it is largely mothers who carry the can for caring, there's going to be hell of an economic shock as we transition to that model.

We start at 8.45 and finish at 3.15. The teacher is with the children from start to finish, they supervise break, eat in the classroom with the children and stay with them until they go home.

@askmehowiknow
You really honestly think the country will continue with isolating all contacts for 14 days?!

l mean I'd be in full pay and would love the time at home! Same as you I assume.

You think our fragile economy would cope?

You think kids would cope with another school year interrupted by a virus that is virtually no risk for them?

Have you seen the news? The economy is shit. Exam results are shit. We can't do this anymore. Sorry!

If we want to control the spread of the virus and prevent/lower the extent of any second wave, yes we will continue.

I'd be working from home if isolated, as I was for the seven weeks that my class wasn't in the building (aside from the weeks that I ran key worker provision)

I agree - we can't continue like this. That's why I presume that you are proactively supporting the call for more secure measures to be in place in order to reduce the likelihood of schools closing in any form. Or are you choosing to deny science, stick your fingers in your ears and just... hope?

*And how would you adapt that if yout patient couldn't be left alone for any period of time and, if you did leave them alone, you could/would be dismissed?

Or do you recognise that your analogy isn't a copy and paste job over the top of schools as both centres function very differently?*

The reality is that it is adapted you do leave the critical patient, or your colleague with a less critical patient leaves theirs. Reality, every day.

Children in school are not critically ill and need unbroken supervision, if your class does I imagine the entire school could find someone more available.

I do agree both do function differently, yet to meet a health professional who chooses not to fulfil their job description and ask the population to support them in the decision.

I am sick of hearing that ' school isn't childcare '. I can assure you that if a single parent is interviewed by the DWP about getting a job that school is very much seen as childcare. No excuses.

Teachers do not work continuously for 6 hours in the same room without a break

If I was a dick I'd say this....

Nurses don't work at close contact with up to 150 people a day in a poorly ventilated space and no PPE.

But the race to the bottom helps no one.