to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

Goady AF thread and attitudes like yours are the reason there has been so much negativity towards teachers.

What normally happens when a teacher goes off sick. Just do that! My kids have never been sent home due to staff sickness.

Our school shut before lockdown due to staff sickness/isolating. It's not normal for 30/120 staff to be off sick. More like 1 per day and then some planned absence eg courses/SLT meetings.

You have to isolate if you or your family have symptoms. Lots of staff have children who had temperatures. There was a cold going round (not corona) but the cough meant isolation. At the time you couldn't get a test so had to isolate for 14 days if it was someone else in your household. Even now if you have a negative test but still have symptoms you should be isolating.

Primary schools are even harder hit. Smaller staff body means it doesn't take many staff to be off before the school shuts.

I think we've all grasped that after six months of juggling school/work/home/health.But thanks🧐

What non qualified adult are you suggesting @rookiemere? A parent?

@askmehowiknow
*This is where the testing with same day results will come in. No more self isolating rubbish. The economy is already on its knees.

Do you don't need to worry about those scenarios*

Unfortunately, I do. Negative results can be given during the incubation period of the virus. As the evidence I gave you last night showed, most transmissions occur during this silent stage through asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission. If I tested straight away, I would return a negative result even if I had the virus. That's why isolation requirements are still in place nationally.

This is where the testing with same day results will come in

Hasn't Boris already said schools won't be getting that until 2021?

@ForgotAboutThis

I really feel like there are some posters on MN that think parents must be wizards, able to just pull childcare options out of a hat at no notice. The lockdown closed all of our available childcare options. We were not allowed in other people's houses so friends and family could not help (plus they also, you know, work). Couldn't get grandparents to babysit because one set still work and the other set are vulnerable. If schools close then plans B, C and D will all close too. We could ask for reduced hours at work, but our employers are under no obligation to provide them. We will muddle through as best we can. As we have done until now. It's miserable and shit but there is nothing else to be done. Teachers are in a shit position and I don't know that what is being asked of them is fair. But please stop acting like it's us against you and if parent were simply more organised then none of this would matter. All the organisation in the world can't magic up a solution.

But I also feel from the other side that many non-teachers think that schools can just magic up more money to make this work. If schools had more money it would make keeping schools open much more doable- they could employ more teachers, they could pay for never-ending supply teachers, they could buy enough cleaning equipment, hand sanitiser and soap, they could employ more cleaners etc etc.

Everyone is in a crap situation and we're all struggling to see the limitations from the other side. I feel for parents and teachers alike.

one teacher can't be in charge of a class of 60 (or more)

Can't you stick each 'bubble' in the assembly hall and put a movie on for a few hours? No need for a teacher, you'd just need a TA to supervise. Or have extended break and lunch times outside for each bubble with just a playground supervisor (where the risk of infection is lower anyway).

Some schools would find it more difficult than others (depending on size and location) to come up with a solution, but if parents can work fulltime and simultaneously educate and entertain children, schools can surely show some initiative as well.

This is where the testing with same day results will come in.

I think that it was clarified that schools would not have access to the new, quicker tests, if indeed they ever materialise?

[quote Iamnotthe1]@askmehowiknow
*This is where the testing with same day results will come in. No more self isolating rubbish. The economy is already on its knees.

Do you don't need to worry about those scenarios*

Unfortunately, I do. Negative results can be given during the incubation period of the virus. As the evidence I gave you last night showed, most transmissions occur during this silent stage through asymptomatic or presymptomatic transmission. If I tested straight away, I would return a negative result even if I had the virus. That's why isolation requirements are still in place nationally.[/quote]
This is what NHS staff already do. Negative test straight back to work. It will become the norm this autumn/winter everywhere. It will have to. We all get coughs colds and fevers. Can't have everyone isolating after 6 months plus stand still to the economy. Can you imagine!

*The thing is, the same options don't exist in schools.

In a primary, every teacher teaches all the time, except for a couple of hours one afternoon a week - covering each other can't work, because if I cover your class because you are ill, mine is left alone*

Yeah you see the thing is in health care, covering each other's work doesn't mean leaving your own patients to deliver care to your colleagues.
It means take on both, no not ideal but this is the historical reality for health professionals. You cover extra work stay longer, no break - this is our reality.
Because you see patients not receiving care causes all sorts of problems.

Can't you stick each 'bubble' in the assembly hall and put a movie on for a few hours?

One bubble fits in our hall. We have 7 bubbles.

Your post is patronising, rude and shows no regard for safeguarding. No school would leave one adult in charge of 60+ children for more than a couple of minutes.

Track and trace has recruited many retired NHS professionals on a temporary basis. I wonder if there's scope to offer newly created supply roles to retired teachers or those who previously were teachers and have lost jobs in other sectors? This only covers schools closing for staff shortage of course, not for full lockdowns.

I know many people wouldn't want to go back to it obviously but some might!

@cantkeepawayforever

This is where the testing with same day results will come in.

I think that it was clarified that schools would not have access to the new, quicker tests, if indeed they ever materialise?

We already use a 60 minute test. I'm sure the government is desperate to get sufficient supplies and announce wide spread use.

They don't have other options...

Can't you stick each 'bubble' in the assembly hall and put a movie on for a few hours? No need for a teacher, you'd just need a TA to supervise. Or have extended break and lunch times outside for each bubble with just a playground supervisor (where the risk of infection is lower anyway).

Many schools have no class TAs.

Teachers do playground supervision on rotas.

This is where the insidious long-term underfunding of schools comes back to haunt us - parents are imagining the schools of their own day, when there were playground supervisors and additional TAs, rather than current schools, where to keep a qualified teacher in front of every class, and a 1:1 supporter for all children legally entitled to one, ALL other staff have been dispensed with.

This is what NHS staff already do. Negative test straight back to work.

Even with symptoms? I thought NHS guidance said isolation until the symptoms are gone?

Teachers can't access the fast tests.

@askmehowiknow

Ah, so your argument is based on the huge assumption that all current advice around isolation and the main role of track and trace will be discarded in September. Do you have any evidence for this?

No, we can't just stick 60 children in the hall and put a film on for 14 days!

@ineedaholidaynow well I suppose a parent would be as good as anyone else. I'd be happy enough to be on a rota with all other DPs to do that, a much better option than having DCs sent home for 2 weeks.

Will the government fund these supply teachers? I bet not. Cheaper for schools to close than rinse their supply budget.

Going out on a limb here and saying I presume OP doesn't have kids then?

You can't win. Literally you can't win.

Over the years it's become common for both parents to work. So parents rely on nursery and school and after-school clubs. Some are lucky to have family. But many don't.

If millions of parents are working and the schools are not open then what can they do? My daughter is going into year one. I don't work as we are happy with other half working and me being the home maker and main childcare provider. I know it seems odd that we choose that way of life but for us it works. We base this on a number of things. We manage fine of his wage and my kids are too little too be home alone and (obviously) there's no help from family. So how can I work? There are 13 weeks at least id be in a pickle!

Anyway back to your post.... My daughter's school have cut the day thirty minutes shorter and have no wrap around care for children. So it's not ideal for many parents who rely on breakfast and after school club. I don't have the answers and I feel bad for families who both work. I think the government needs to do more so famlies can have options and have the choice to stay home when the children are young. Many choose to work for their sanity and I understand that. But many also work through not having a choice. Being worried about pensions etc.... At the end of the day children need adults to care for them up until they can independently stay home or walk home from school alone. I'm guessing around 11-12 when they go to secondary they can be slightly more independent. Until then ofcourse parents need childcare or need to stay home. Boris doesn't seem to be factoring many things into his brilliant plan.

Schools not childcare but technically many parents rely on it for the opportunity to go to work.

Education and school are not the same thing.
Education is vital (IMO) and should be valued above pretty much everything else.
Schools are a vehicle for delivering that, but have morphed into a general service to society which requires them to operate according to a predictable timetable so that other parts of society can function.
Do yes, they need to open again, and even though any contrived demands for 'safety' are unrealistic and simple can't be met.
There is minimal 'danger' in opening as normal and maximum danger in halting a service that is very obviously partly for childcare.

@hammeringinmyhead are they being paid?

There are supply teachers out there but there isn’t the money to pay them as the Government is refusing to pay schools any additional money to cover COVID

ineedaholidaynow There was a hub school a few miles away, I wasn’t able to access it as both had to be key workers and H wouldn’t necessarily be termed one. However I muddled through so it wasn’t that big an issue for us.

But I don’t like it being portrayed that keyworker access was available for everyone as it wasn’t.