to say that working parents need a Plan B (and all parents are responsible for their children's Covid-appropriate behaviour)?

[SaltyAndFresh]

We're kidding ourselves if we think we really have the data to say that opening schools with no social distancing, no PPE (not through choice, it's not allowed) and in many cases inadequately ventilated and crowded classrooms is safe. We can't possibly know. Secondary teachers will be in standing in front of around 300 pupils a week, and there isn't the space for a 2m distance at the front of the room.

Teachers are not saying they don't want schools to reopen (not that they were shut) which has been said and ignored multiple times. I'm both a working parent and a teacher.

AIBU to say that schools don't exist for parents' economic convenience and that if too many school staff become ill, it's up to parents to have a Plan B if schools have to scale back their opening? If in the coming months, we as parents end up having to reduce our hours to facilitate blended learning, it will mean difficult financial times ahead but that will not be the fault of schools and school staff.

Please note the 'if'.

Furthermore, AIBU to say that parents of mainstream pupils who want schools open, come what may, should be accountable for their DC's Covid-appropriate behaviour, whether or not they believe the virus is a hoax?

if some of our doctors, nurses and reception staff go off sick, are you happy for us to close for a few days? Or reduce our hours?

GP services are not back to normal round here. My friend had to do her own contraceptive injection this week. I don’t see anyone querying why that should be so?

You can use “blended” medicine - a mixture of talking to an actual doctor, and googling your symptoms on the days the surgery is closed. OK with you?

You jest but our surgery moved to online consultations. They found them much quicker and more efficient. Therefore all the GPs only worked 4 days a week, the other day was cpd.

Supply teachers - there aren't enough particularly specialist ones.

Cross cover - not really sure what this is or how it would work at Secondary.

@Mintychoc1

I don’t think parents should need to have a plan B. I think schools should have a plan B if staff go off sick. Supply teachers, cross-covering each other etc.

I’m a GP.
OP if some of our doctors, nurses and reception staff go off sick, are you happy for us to close for a few days? Or reduce our hours? You can use “blended” medicine - a mixture of talking to an actual doctor, and googling your symptoms on the days the surgery is closed. OK with you? Or would you prefer us to cover each other, work extra hours and employ locums, so we can continue to provide the same service as usual.

But how does this work realistically? Schools can't afford constant supply teachers, and one teacher can't be in charge of a class of 60 (or more). How much teaching and learning is actually going to be going on in massive classes of 60+.

The fact of the matter is that even though schools enable parents to work, schools are there to essentially provide education. They don't need or have to provide childcare. The only reason they provided it during lockdown was because the government repurposed many of then. They said no education, just childcare for key workers. So therefore, if schools close from September onwards then they are responsible for providing decent online learning but they don't need to be providing childcare. The government should be providing childcare for those children affected by school/bubble closures.

I actually don't think you are being unreasonable OP.

Before the pandemic it was always trotted out on Mumsnet that 'schools aren't childcare'.

I could end up lambasted for saying this, but I think most children above the age of ten or so are able to stay in themselves, so long as the parent is phoning regularly, the house is as safe as possible, and healthy no cook meals and snacks are left. Older siblings ie 13/14 are mostly perfectly capable of looking after children of around 5 and above.

For the duration of the summer holidays last year, I had no choice. Single parent, out of school shut as within school, no childminders available to cover, holiday clubs finished at 5 and I finish at 5.30, believe me I tried everything. DC aged 13 and 9. The benefits / jobcentre are not very understanding of people just quitting jobs and I can't afford the five week wait even if I wasn't sanctioned for quitting.

I called every hour, they could call me. Strict rules of no answering the door, no kettle / cooker / shower. I trust them anyway but I warned them that I'd be returning early on a few of the days just in case.

It's not ideal no, but a few decades ago was viewed as completely fine.

What about trusted friends popping by?? Family if that's an option?? If a two parent family, reducing outgoings and one parent quitting until they can manage shifts around each other??

The government should be building online learning for these kinds of eventualities.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that it's a difficult situation for some, but the whole pandemic isn't ideal, and the virus doesn't care about our jobs or the economy, it just is what it is and we have to deal the best we can.

If schools have to close or be part time to control the spread, that's what needs to happen.

Or would you prefer us to cover each other, work extra hours and employ locums, so we can continue to provide the same service as usual.

The thing is, the same options don't exist in schools.

In a primary, every teacher teaches all the time, except for a couple of hours one afternoon a week - covering each other can't work, because if I cover your class because you are ill, mine is left alone. In the vast majority of schools, there is 1 space - the hall - big enough for a combined class of 60, and obviously bubbles (designed to prevent schools closing) don't allow the combination of classes anyway.

If a class TA exists - increasingly rare - then they could take the class BUT it is entirely possible that as the other adult in the room, if a teacher has gone off with Covid, the TA will also have to self-isolate as a close contact

I can't offer to work extra hours, because it is no help to parents if I say 'yes, that's fine, I'll teach my own class 8.30 - 3.15 and then I'll teach the sick teacher's class from 3.30 - 9 pm'.

Yes, supply teachers exist - and in primaries in some areas it is still possible to find them (getting a secondary Maths supply teacher, for example, is generally impossible). Whether a supply teacher would WANT to come in and cover a class where the class teacher is off with Covid is perhaps a different question.

@Mintychoc1

I’m also confused about the “not that they were shut” comment about schools. They most definitely were shut. No pupils, no teachers, doors locked, gates locked, lights off, empty rooms - seems pretty shut to me!

Sorry, those of us in day after day, week after week looking after keyworker children must have been imagining it.

Yeah ok "children are a lifestyle choice" is a lovely nonsensical cliche and all that, but do you have a "plan B" for the NHS collapsing if all the mothers (obviously it would end up being mothers) who are also doctors or nurses have to resign? Hope you do, after all everyone should be ready for global pandemics!

Not read whole thread, I have to be honest.
My plan B is to give up my job, I can't be in school teaching, and providing online learning and home schooling my own children. The last term and a half nearly killed me, me and DH crunched the numbers and if we are back to anything less than full time teaching I am off, and leaving teaching completely so not hanging around for end of term.
That said I actually believe the time is coming when people will accept Covid is here to stay and is just another really nasty virus that could land you in ICU if your unlucky just like the hundreds of other viruses we come across everyday.

@Mintychoc1

I’m also confused about the “not that they were shut” comment about schools. They most definitely were shut. No pupils, no teachers, doors locked, gates locked, lights off, empty rooms - seems pretty shut to me!

All schools where I work were open throughout for keyworker / vulnerable childcare, and all were partially open from 1st / 15th June - in the case of the primaries, the latter involved every non-shielding member of staff, because with half size classes, every classroom was in use.

I’m not saying it would be easy, of course it wouldn’t. But the “we’ll just have to close” attitude is not exactly fair is it, while telling parents they they need a plan B. Which may be equally difficult.

No schools shut here apart from during Easter holiday when a couple of the larger Primaries became hubs and the smaller village Primaries closed. But the pupils and staff for those schools went to the hubs. But once the holidays were over the schools all opened again.

Problem is in a School if a teacher goes off sick who is going to look after their 30+ pupils, you can’t just leave them on their own. The school’s supply budget will be spent very quickly and then what? Are you proposing class sizes of 60+?

@Mintychoc1

We had over 300 children in our class during lockdown. Us silly teachers must have imagined them all.

oh well yes, of course it is obviously that easy. thank goodness you came on and suggested this to us - what would we have done without you telling us we needed a plan B????!!!!
I am a doctor. My DH is a teacher. neither of our employers would agree to us "reducing our hours" just like that. I am already working in a team that has a shortage of medics at a time of massively increased workload. But sure, yes, I'll just reduce my hours and not provide medical care to my pateints shall I???

Not to mention that our current financail reposinbilites are based on both of us working full time. If we didn't we would (very quicky)get to a point where we couldnt pay the motgage - but thats fine, I suppose bceoming homeless could be part of our plan B.

I sometimes wonder how some posters seem so out of touch with reality!

The government should be building online learning for these kinds of eventualities.

They are. See Oak Academy.

What are us parents who work and have school aged kids meant to do?
Not everyone can WFH
Not everyone can afford to not work.
The Government cannot continue to furlough

Dont send your kids back if thats what you want. But some of have no choice. Sick of people moaning and generalising about schools. If you're so worried contact the school and speak to them. Everyone in a school is trained and doing their best. Including me who working from May half term until summer holidays so some of the most vulnerable kids could have the kind of routines that regulate their behaviours so their parents can once again breathe.

Key worker childcare provision wasn’t available in my area unless both parents were key workers. So no good to many parents.

And yes, my kids school was definitely shut.

Was there not a hub school in your area @Nicknacky?

@ineedaholidaynow

No schools shut here apart from during Easter holiday when a couple of the larger Primaries became hubs and the smaller village Primaries closed. But the pupils and staff for those schools went to the hubs. But once the holidays were over the schools all opened again.

Problem is in a School if a teacher goes off sick who is going to look after their 30+ pupils, you can’t just leave them on their own. The school’s supply budget will be spent very quickly and then what? Are you proposing class sizes of 60+?

What normally happens when a teacher goes off sick. Just do that! My kids have never been sent home due to staff sickness.

We know from everyone else who's gone back to work nationally and globally that it's very unlikely every single teacher will get covid at the same time. If at all. And if they do- great. It's over and done with for that school and incredibly unlikely to happen again.

I think people are just looking for excuses not to go back

I really feel like there are some posters on MN that think parents must be wizards, able to just pull childcare options out of a hat at no notice.
The lockdown closed all of our available childcare options. We were not allowed in other people's houses so friends and family could not help (plus they also, you know, work). Couldn't get grandparents to babysit because one set still work and the other set are vulnerable.
If schools close then plans B, C and D will all close too. We could ask for reduced hours at work, but our employers are under no obligation to provide them. We will muddle through as best we can. As we have done until now. It's miserable and shit but there is nothing else to be done.
Teachers are in a shit position and I don't know that what is being asked of them is fair. But please stop acting like it's us against you and if parent were simply more organised then none of this would matter. All the organisation in the world can't magic up a solution.

And I have said it before and I will say it again for those saying deregister your child, many children who will be deregistered are the vulnerable ones posters have been saying for months should be in school, slightly ironic.

There are plans in place to help minimise complete closure but none of those see all pupils in the building at all times. I'll run through some examples:

I teach Year Six. If I am told to isolate as a result of someone outside of school testing positive (through track and trace) then no-one will be left to teach my class. Another teacher from a different class would be redistributed into my class to teach them (because Year Six is seen as a priority year group). If adequate supply can be found for their class, that's fine but if it can't, that class will be sent home. Assuming I continue to be well but isolating, I'll deliver online provision for that class which they will access at home. That will last until I no longer have to isolate.

If I test positive, I will have been in close contact with all of the other members of my class (under 50cm for more than 15 minutes) for the last two days and, as such, my class would be told to isolate at home. If I was well enough, I'd provide online provision for them whilst they are isolating. I'd return once I was able to and then they would return at the end of their isolation.

I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP's posts, but I feel compelled to point out that you're incredibly naive if you think that key workers who have been working throughout this in their work setting have had access to appropriate PPE. You say it's not a race to the bottom but that's exactly what you're trying to create and frankly teachers won't be 'winning' that contest.

Of course education isn't childcare but societal norms and economics are set up, based on children under 18 being in full time education.

I'm usually fully supportive of teachers but you aren't doing a good job of representing a profession which deserves massive respect.

300 pupils a week

... I teach 180 kids a day, on average

30ish kids in 5 lessons a day
33 kids in my daily tutor group

@Iamnotthe1

There are plans in place to help minimise complete closure but none of those see all pupils in the building at all times. I'll run through some examples:

I teach Year Six. If I am told to isolate as a result of someone outside of school testing positive (through track and trace) then no-one will be left to teach my class. Another teacher from a different class would be redistributed into my class to teach them (because Year Six is seen as a priority year group). If adequate supply can be found for their class, that's fine but if it can't, that class will be sent home. Assuming I continue to be well but isolating, I'll deliver online provision for that class which they will access at home. That will last until I no longer have to isolate.

If I test positive, I will have been in close contact with all of the other members of my class (under 50cm for more than 15 minutes) for the last two days and, as such, my class would be told to isolate at home. If I was well enough, I'd provide online provision for them whilst they are isolating. I'd return once I was able to and then they would return at the end of their isolation.

This is where the testing with same day results will come in. No more self isolating rubbish. The economy is already on its knees.

Do you don't need to worry about those scenarios

If a teacher is sick, then putting a non qualified adult in charge of the class with some handouts is better than sending the DCs home. As at least that way the parents in the class can continue to work and the DCs will be in an appropriate setting for learning with no computer based distractions.