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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

329 replies

Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 08:59

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

OP posts:
Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 11:54

[quote PicsInRed]**@PicsInReddid you miss the bit where i stated that A) I'm not talking about abusive men and B) that i spent years in an abusive relationship?

A. Abuse comes in many forms and is often without punches to the face - often the most lifelong damage comes from the damage done inside a victim's head

B. So did I. That doesn't mean I can identify every abusive dynamic from the public image put on for the neighbours. My ex was the feckless but lovely guy. I was "lucky". Behind closed doors he was a monster who, aside from the nastier stuff, left me to do absoutely everything.

The "partner" who leaves their other half to carry the entire domestic weight is exhibiting a level of contempt which will almost certainly leech into other forms of abuse - which the outside world seldom sees or hears about and wouldn't believe of such a normal bloke even if they were told.[/quote]
Do you really think that every feckless man who doesn't do his share around the house, every disengaged dad, is abusive?

Mumsnet seems obsessed with labelling every guy who is simply a bit of a dick as abusive, when in fact he's just a dick. It's unhelpful, and makes it harder for women experiencing actual abuse to get perspective on what is happening to them.

OP posts:
KarlKennedysDurianFruit · 15/08/2020 11:55

Age is sometimes a factor, my friend Tom a long time finding someone she thought was right to have a long term relationship with. We her closest friends were never a fan, he seemed like a man child, usually had a job but never for long, no ambition, not very bright, didn't seem to realise that what he had in my friend was an intelligent, successful, kind, lovely person, he just rented someone to run around and look after him while he floated through life moaning. She didn't seem to fully realise this before they lived together and they bought together rather than rented and she was 34 nearly 35. She told us she knew the relationship might not last and a child would be make or break, but she had PCOS and didn't know if she could have a child much later. She was financially able to support herself and a child and take over the mortgage should it end, being the much higher earner. It was a calculated choice and they split when the child was one. She dotes on the child, her career is going well, he is now flaky about contact (luckily his parents are wonderful grandparents who despair of their son, so baby has good family on both sides). She made the choice as though she may well end up being a single parent and knew she could manage that.

canigooutyet · 15/08/2020 11:57

[quote IsaLain]@Noneformethanks

How would he even know that you had contraceptive pills? You can easily get your prescription renewed and no one is going to tell him. The only way for him to know was for you to tell him you had them.

Also, why didnt you just present yourself at a police station, womens aid or council homeless department?[/quote]
Some abusive men what to know where she is every moment of the day.
Some will go to the gp's with their partner.
Some will search their partners bags and pockets when they return home.
Going to the police station is great as long as that officer understand DV.

Going to the homeless department isn't that easy and will suggest you go home and convince him to leave. Or the alternative is to move to a homeless place well away from any support network, away from the kids school and their mates, and regardless of how many kids you have, it's often one room.

Womans aid don't always have the space and will ask if you can sleep on mates sofas etc. Great as long as you don't have those mates who think you should just stay as all relationships have their difficulties.

TableFlowerss · 15/08/2020 11:58

I do think that financially there’s not much available in the way of funding to help women escape these kind of relationships.

Not all women that are being abused have black eyes and broken ribs and fear for their life. That’s the extreme example.

There are others that are being financially and emotionally abused. They have no access to funds so how would they get their deposit together to move out? How would they furniture it? If they did manage to get a bit of money together, realistically what could they afford? To live on a run down estate with local drug dealers and smack heads? They’d probably feel better off where they are.

It’s just not as simple as up sticks and go. I’m sure if someone gave them £10k they would find it much easier to leave. Even the fact that many LL don’t allow remnants with befefits.

All of the above makes it so difficult for those in abusive relationships.

Nomorepies · 15/08/2020 11:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on the poster's request.

lynsey91 · 15/08/2020 12:00

Some women are so desperate to have children they would have them with almost any man.

That is also why some women chose to get pregnant "accidentally" and also some choose to be single mothers.

Morred · 15/08/2020 12:01

I think a lot of women don’t think a dad who is (the milder end of feckless/useless round the house/disengaged) is ruining their kids lives, so there’s much less incentive to sack him off.

Because in society generally men get a massively easy time of it and many people think playing a game of footie on a Saturday makes you wonderDad. If everyone else’s dads are similarly engaged (do maybe one token activity with the kids, but no housework, life admin or mental load) they won’t necessarily think “my dad doesn’t care about me”, they think “mums do housework and dads don’t”.

So women think it’s “not bad” enough to leave and it’s not damaging their child, and they really want another baby or want to give their first a sibling, and they still love their DH and most men aren’t any better anyway...

PicsInRed · 15/08/2020 12:02

Do you really think that every feckless man who doesn't do his share around the house, every disengaged dad, is abusive?

You aren't talking about "not doing their share", though, you're talking about "useless". Doing no share. Surely you can understand why a woman would complete her family with a man who fails to pick up his pants but is otherwise unoffensive, when there is so much dire crap in the dating pool - including the potential risk to your first child?

By the same token, surely you can understand that a woman turned into a soulless drudge isn't in the same priviledged position as you to make "good" choices?

I guess the question is: which are you talking about? Guy who leaves pants on floor, or guy who refuses to do any housework at all leaving wife exhausted and miserable?

canigooutyet · 15/08/2020 12:02

It's true, not all are being beaten, some are killed.
She is at her most vulnerable when he realises the relationship is finishing.

I would love to live in the world of some of these posters where they think a person living in abuse can just up and leave.

I've been here a long time so have others. Have you forgotten about what the MN member did one night for another MN member who couldn't leave an abusive relationship? The lengths she went through to get the woman to safety. Iirc, abuser was also a reasonably well earner and she didn't have a pot to piss in.

Allmyarseandpeggymartin · 15/08/2020 12:03

My friend had her first baby, realised he was useless, got pregnant and saw through Mat leave with her second and then booted her husband out.

She wanted another baby and for her son to have a sibling so she put up with him until she got what she wanted

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 12:04

[quote IsaLain]@Enoughnowstop

Then get the injection, or the coil or the implant. All of which can be accessed at sexual health clinics or your GP. No need for an online paper trail.[/quote]
I couldn’t get there. I had no transport, lived rurally and he took the car. I had no access to money that he didn’t control so couldn’t get a taxi or a bus.

If I had the car I had to account for where I went.

He would have noticed an implant or injection site.

Sexual health clinic either in the day (so how to take kids, even if I could get there) or one evening - again, how to get there and what excuse to make?

Shouldhavegonesooner · 15/08/2020 12:06

I came from a family where violence was the norm. I honestly thought it was . I married young and found a different kind of abuse. I laugh at the at idea of hiding contraceptive pills. For many years I was followed even to the toilet. Only twice did I go out without him. On my return from an outing (with my aunt to a concert) I rushed to the loo. Only to find myself dragged out by my hair ... so that he could search me and the loo for evidence I had had sex.
I had children because that was on the list of things to do. Although I admit that the kindness of the midwives and strangers was the only time I felt safe. I tried to give my children happy childhoods . Eventually when they were grown up I left. I have been on my own since and I feel safer that way . I'm old now but my children and grandchildren have done well and are I hope , happy . I hope they never had such low self esteem that in their old age , they still cringe at the sound of an angry or patronising male voice. Professionally I have done well but please , before you judge think of those who are brainwashed into thinking they are so ugly and deformed that they cannot escape. Particularly when the abuser is a "pillar" of a very traditional society .

madcatladyforever · 15/08/2020 12:06

A lot of people are under the very mistaken opinion that babies are the "glue" that will mend their marriages and make their partner better.
The opposite is true.

PicsInRed · 15/08/2020 12:06

And, yes, a "disengaged" Dad is emotionally abusing - abusing his children. Childhood emotional neglect is immensely damaging to children and to the adults they become.

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 12:07

[quote IsaLain]@Noneformethanks

How would he even know that you had contraceptive pills? You can easily get your prescription renewed and no one is going to tell him. The only way for him to know was for you to tell him you had them.

Also, why didnt you just present yourself at a police station, womens aid or council homeless department?[/quote]
Where would I put the pills? He checked the bathroom and my bag. Where would I have hidden them?

Also, I’m “out” 15 years. Online ordering wasn’t a thing. I had no mobile and had to ring for prescriptions to the doc and he checked the phone bill. Ostensibly because I was so shit with money I would have run up phone bills. That’s what he told peop,e.

canigooutyet · 15/08/2020 12:07

And useless feckers loads of people on mn have them as partners.
THreads constantly whining about the useless fucker - parenting not his job, his job is uber important and I'm basically his slave. getting thanked for taking the bins out, nagged at to put their dirty socks in the wash basket, to clean up their own shit and piss from the toilet etc.

They claim to not be in an abusive relationship, they can get money etc whenever they want etc. Those I always wonder, wtf are you still with this person?

Spied · 15/08/2020 12:08

DC1 was only 9 months old when I got pregnant with DC2 so fatherhood was still rather new and exciting.
If DP had asked to try for a third dc 1 year later I'd have had to say no. True colours were starting to shine through and things weren't so exciting the second time around and enthusiasm and effort started to wane.
No matter how much I'd have wanted another I'd have said no.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 12:10

Why are we blaming women for enabling the shitty behaviour of men when the discussion should instead be focussed on why some men are shitty man-children?

I understand that this is because ive never lived through it, but I never understand the "he took all my stuff, I couldnt access anything" women. How hard is it to walk into a police station, or a womens shelter or even the council homeless department. You dont need to take anything with you. When he us at work, you go. I will never understand why women dont leave. I end relationships at even the sniff of them being controlling or cruel. Just leave

"Just leave" is the kind of ignorant statement made by people who have little understanding of abuse. Leaving is the most dangerous time, around 40% of women killed by their partner had either recently left or were preparing to leave., losing control over their victim is often what tips an abuser over the edge. When my mother left, my father stabbed her a few weeks later. A few months after that he attempted to abduct her and when stopped he attempted to stab her again. For many women it takes several attempts to leave and convincing them to resume the relationship is in itself a form of control.

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 12:11

[quote IsaLain]@Noneformethanks

How would he even know that you had contraceptive pills? You can easily get your prescription renewed and no one is going to tell him. The only way for him to know was for you to tell him you had them.

Also, why didnt you just present yourself at a police station, womens aid or council homeless department?[/quote]
As I said. Lived rurally had no way to get anywhere.

No one believed me. I told 3 people. They didn’t believe me. He used to laugh in my face and tell me to go to the police who Would they believe. Him fine upstanding member of the community or me who he spent years painting to all and sundry as mentally unwell unstable and a fruit loop.

And he was right. No one did. I did eventually get out but no one believed me. Most people still wouldn’t I know that.

Houndabouttown · 15/08/2020 12:14

A lot of people do rush into things without thinking. A friend of mine had a sort of 5 year plan that she was insistent on fulfilling. Rushed into marriage with someone who on paper was brilliant but has now admitted she had doubts before the wedding. Already pregnant with their DC1 on wedding day. Had a tiny gap between DC1 and DC2 because that’s what she had always planned even though she had realised he was no good by then. She’s left him now. It could have been a completely different story if they had married a year later or so.

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 12:16

I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere on my own. But it was all dressed up and painted as for my own good. Because I was such a head case and fruit loop and untrustworthy and who knows what might happen.

I had no privacy. I couldn’t lock the bathroom door. I couldn’t have a bag that he didn’t search or a bedside drawer. All done for the best of reasons and you just understand it was for my own good because who knows what might happen if he wasn’t there to keep an eye on me.

It was truly hard to break away from and I wish people wouldn’t jut blithely say “why didn’t you just leave” because I was 15 when he picked me, from a dysfunctional background (although I didn’t know it then) and I did my bloody best. It’s just awful that I’m being blamed On here and asked why didn’t you this or that or the next thing and it’s not fair. You wouldn’t ask a rape Victim. Why ask me like that? (Notwithstanding I am a rape victim)

riotlady · 15/08/2020 12:17

@IsaLain

Honestly I find your questioning of women who’ve been in abusive relationships quite horrible. If you genuinely want to understand, I suggest using the wizardry of google to find some reputable sources, if you’re just being a wind up for the sake of it then please shut up.

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 12:22

And you know. If I’d told you what he was like I was ashamed. Ashamed and afraid. Afraid I’d be judged for staying with him. Which I would have been. And have beeN on this thread.

So of course I said he’s just a bit shit and let that be the image that was painted. Because it was a judgement on me that I stayed and a judgement on me that I didn’t walk 10 miles with 3 kids sooner to go to women’s aid or the police or 17 miles to a hospital.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 12:33

*How would he even know that you had contraceptive pills? You can easily get your prescription renewed and no one is going to tell him. The only way for him to know was for you to tell him you had them. Also, why didnt you just present yourself at a police station, womens aid or council homeless department?

You don't understand the fear of being caught breaking the rules and the consequences of it. You tow the line even when your abuser isn't there because your life won't be worth listening if you are involved in any sort of defiance.

You also underestimate the psychological effects of abuse. Abusers aren't awful all of the time, there is a carrot and stick mentality and a cycle to abuse of building tension, explosion, making up, and then calm. You get told that the explosion part is your fault and then during the reconciliation and the calm, your abuser is loving, kind, protective, and you do come to think it's your fault. I thought I was a worthless, unloveable, nasty, selfish, manipulative child and teenager because that's what I was conditioned to think. During the tension building stage we would all hear about how we were getting too big for our boots, that we were ungrateful, that we were spoiled, that a "talk" was coming, that our attitudes were disgusting and we had better adjust them or we were going to find ourselves taken down a peg or two and so on so that when the explosion did come it had already been established ahead of time that it was our own faults and that we could have prevented it if we had heeded the warnings and tried harder not to be so uppity/selfish/spoiled.

And then during the explosion you're ground down to nothing, lower then nothing, because that's the bit where your abuser shows you exactly how little you mean both to them and others. During the explosion was where my father would pack our bags and shove us out the door. Eight years old, shouted out of bed and kicked out by your dad late at night clutching a Care Bear suitcase with the warning that youd probably get picked up by the Bad Man before the police or a kind stranger and would be murdered in a ditch by morning. Do you know how frightening that is? And it was no good telling our korhwr because he did it while she was on night shift and he told us that she had put him up to it because she was just as disgusted by us as he was. No good complaining to a teacher or another adult because why would they believe us? Children lie all the time and we were already proven manipulators so why would they believe us over him? And then we'd pay for embarrassing him when we got home, he guaranteed us that. And if they did believe us then we'd be taken away and put into care. Did we know what sort of vile child abusers worked in the care system? If we thought he was bad wait until we were living with foster parents who wanted to beat us or rape us or starve us. He never hit us, he only told us off when we deserved it for being naughty and of course he had to be robust with the telling off or how else would we learn? And then we'd move into the reconciliation stage where he'd be sorry for being so strict and would make us realise that yes, we had been the wrong, and that yes we did forgive him of course we did, there wasn't anything to even forgive then on and on it went.

Police station, Womens Aid, council homeless department, and so on aren't immediate. They can't swoop in like Batman and spirit you away whilst protecting you because services don't work that way.

You have zero understanding of abuse and your comments about "why don't people do this or that?" are victim blaming.

Shouldhavegonesooner · 15/08/2020 12:34

I was advised by my GP to leave following my post natal check up for one of my children . ( I hadn't healed well !!) I managed to visit women's aid ( open one day a week in our nearest town) they were concerned but I had to leave in case his dentist appointment finished early . Nearest town miles away . I didn't drive. I had no money . Phone bills were itemised . I plucked up courage and told a relative ( I had no friends. They were forbidden) I was told " you made your bed , lie on it" and she told HIS cousin who raised concerns with his huge family that I was "insane" .So that's how I was treated . No you can't just leave .