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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

329 replies

Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 08:59

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

OP posts:
user1471462428 · 15/08/2020 12:40

In my case he was useless with the first and I thought it was being a first time dad and having a newly set up business. I had the second thinking he had improved and the job could take a backseat. In the later stages of my pregnancy he became abusive and continued to be. I don’t really talk to anyone about it and I guess people think he useless,
Though I think the line between useless and abuse is very thin..... my ex could run a business but not look after his children so I could go out or have a rest.

dontdisturbmenow · 15/08/2020 12:41

Mumsnet seems obsessed with labelling every guy who is simply a bit of a dick as abusive, when in fact he's just a dick
That but also women love to moan to friends and family and o my reporting the worse so that others imagine a feckless husband but in reality, she's herself far from perfect and he is not half as bad as she reports him to be in closed doors.

Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 12:42

@dontdisturbmenow

Mumsnet seems obsessed with labelling every guy who is simply a bit of a dick as abusive, when in fact he's just a dick That but also women love to moan to friends and family and o my reporting the worse so that others imagine a feckless husband but in reality, she's herself far from perfect and he is not half as bad as she reports him to be in closed doors.
Thank you!
OP posts:
Neron · 15/08/2020 12:50

Why are we blaming women for enabling the shitty behaviour of men when the discussion should instead be focussed on why some men are shitty man-children?

Or women could take responsibility for their own actions? I know MN hates men, but there are irresponsible women out there too. They know they are doing most of the work with regards to the home/children, but make that decision to have more and wonder why nothing changes. But this is MN, women can do no wrong on here.

Catsup · 15/08/2020 12:52

Because if you're already entrenched and 'conditioned' within an abusive relationship it's often extremely difficult to disengage from it? Especially once you already have one child that essentially 'seals the deal'. How can you get a coil fitted when the strings are a give away to a sexual partner? How can you have an arm implant when it's seen under the skin? How can you actively 'hide' birth control tablets when you literally have no where to hide them? How can you profess you're unable to 'concieve', if a controlling partner insists on sitting in on every GP appointment you attend? It's not easy to 'just walk away' from your life when you literally have nowhere to walk to? What's really your options?. Leave an abusive partner with a child(s) in tow and the clothes on your backs? And be expected to be bloody 'grateful' that you've 'escaped'? Should society not be more focused on why do some male partners get away with being abusing cunts, and then often go on to repeat it with another woman with no ramifications? Whilst the woman/child(ren) who were abused, are viewed as 'being pitied', but essentially there must have been something something 'wrong' essentially with 'them', or their psyche? My ex was a abusive horrible cunt (he still is!). His second wife also now knows this! But she's determined to 'stand by her choices' 😕. My ex 'demanded' my phone number 6mths ago as he stated 'we need still need to talk'. Meh! Our child is 22! No phone number needed for you, matey! 😂

gumball37 · 15/08/2020 12:52

Eh. People make mistakes. I left my ex a week after we found out I was pregnant because of how he immediately changed... But not everyone is able to easily make that decision.

Graphista · 15/08/2020 12:52

Spend your energy on being baffled why men are abusive, not on why their soul-destroyed victims stay with them.

This!

We are learning all the time that abuse can be far more subtle and insidious than the "traditional" hitting, shouting, throwing stuff etc

My mum is in an abusive marriage which yes, has included the above but by far the most damaging, hardest to resist abuse has been the systematic, relentless and constant undermining of her self esteem, confidence and ability to resist my dad.

I would argue that many if not all these women are also victims to a greater or lesser extent.

Plus you add in the societal "abuse" in the form of financial and mental entrapment these women feel and experience, plus like it or not while the stigma of being a single mum is less than it was, it still exists as does the discrimination and inequalities against single parent families. Even more so against women who have children with different fathers.

This is what makes women even more reluctant to leave a relationship once children are involved.

Also because the financial and emotional abuse doesn't stop when you leave him, because we don't have a robust, fair and efficient system for enforcing payment of reasonable child maintenance, preventing exes from continuing their harassment and undermining of the resident parent etc

And that's without the overtly abusive tactics of coercive rape, stealthing (removing condom without the woman knowing) and tampering with contraception which can and does happen.

It doesn't really matter if outsiders can tell the difference though, as they're not the ones making the reproductive decisions.

clearly it does! Because from the outside you CANNOT know what is going on re potential coercion/abuse.

My mum is an amazing woman, intelligent, funny, thoughtful, caring, extremely capable in every job she's had, very financially adept (she's had to be!) yet my dad has her convinced she is stupid, fat, ugly, boring, useless with money etc she genuinely doesn't believe she would cope living alone because she's had almost 50 years of being told she wouldn't EVERY SINGLE DAY all day. Not only by him but he's created scenarios where he's managed to get his family and friends to see her that way too and say so! And isolated her from all but her most determined family members.

You could have started a whole thread about why so many men are useless and bad fathers, but no, you had to hone in on the women victimised

totally agree

The anonymous vote is interesting as it’s clear that an overwhelming majority (2:1) agree with the OP. This is certainly not reflected in most of the comments on MN about these situations, so I think it’s interesting to get a bit of an insight into how most readers (rather than commentators) think.

yet very few of these have the courage of their convictions to post even though it's an anon site! Cowards!

I'm genuinely sorry for those who have suffered abusive realionships but the OP has clearly stated, several times she is explicitely not talking about abuse.

Then you and op need to make more effort to understand mental/emotional abuse

Physical barriers to leaving are easier overcome than mental ones.

Definitely! My siblings and I have shown mum how she could manage financially and practically if she left dad but she can’t make the emotional leap. She can’t believe it’s possible.

@IsaLain your comment is SO disgusting I won’t repeat it but I have reported it and your subsequent equally nasty posts, I’m shocked if nobody else has or they were and mn left them standing!

You clearly have NO understanding of the mental effects of abuse! Shame on you! Regarding contraception sexual health services have been absolutely decimated especially in the more deprived areas. Medical confidentiality can be poor in some areas too - it’s shite where I live which is a small insular community where bloody everyone knows everyone! Abusers could find the contraception I’ve even known of cases where they’ve felt the coil threads or seen other signs and it’s resulted in further abuse. Not all women are medically able to use the methods that are easier to hide.

@op - having been in an abusive relationship yourself you seem to be suffering a serious case of denial/cognitive dissonance

It's unhelpful, and makes it harder for women experiencing actual abuse to get perspective on what is happening to them.

No - attitudes like THIS are unhelpful and make it harder for women experiencing more subtle, more insidious forms of abuse to be taken seriously and accessing help - you’re helping abusers!

Going to the police station is great as long as that officer understand DV also true, several posts/threads on here where abused women HAVE gone to the police and been fobbed off, there’s even been cases in the news where this has happened and it’s resulted in the death of the woman.

Even the govt have created situations making it EASIER for women to be financially and otherwise abused or stay in abusive relationships - joint UC claims, 2 child limit, reduction of funding to councils...

I would love to live in the world of some of these posters where they think a person living in abuse can just up and leave yep sounds a great easy world eh?

What I can’t see mentioned to this point is also the fear that women have that if they leave the guy, without any proof of abuse their children are likely to have to have unsupervised contact with this man on a regular basis and the women won’t be able to protect them. The mothers correctly assess that the father will simply switch their abuse to the children.

Extreme but did/does happen. There was a spate of murder/suicides in the news a few years back, I don’t know if it’s happening less now or simply isn’t being reported, where men who were non resident parents were killing their children on contact visits and then killing themselves. I’m fairly sure there’s a considerable number of women who fear a similar scenario, iirc in several of these cases the women DID tell the relevant authorities that there was abuse and the father was likely to be abusive to the children and the women weren’t believed!

@noneformethanks I am so sorry for all you’ve been through and glad you managed to escape. My mother is in a very similar scenario, dad checks all phone calls, mileage on the car, times how long she’s out and if he deems she’s taking too long to do x kicks off. Lockdown has been a bloody nightmare for her as they’re in their 70’s so it provided the perfect excuse for him not to allow her out at all! It’s having a horrible effect on her. We’ve (siblings and I) done all we practically can short of kidnapping her ourselves! But we cannot persuade her to leave or even seek support.

I’m truly disgusted by the ops and their supporters attitudes on this thread! Shame on you all! You’re actively making it HARDER for women in difficult/abusive situations.

MsEllany · 15/08/2020 12:54

@KatnissK

I read on here a poster saying her dh was useless but she wanted more kids and even though she was fairly sure the marriage was doomed she was worried she'd not find anyone else so wanted another baby with him while they were still together. So maybe that factors into it? Or maybe the men make promises to change/"it will be different next time" but don't and it's the same. Or like my aunt - her husband wanted a boy. Had her first- a girl but ok, husband didn't mind too much as the next one would be his boy. A couple of years later along comes the second - another girl. He totally lost interest after that. I remember visiting her in the hospital and he was sitting next to her sulking (like, full on glowering at her like she'd deliberately denied him a son) and then he pissed off to the pub as soon as we'd said hello. And no, he wasn't Henry VIII but he was certainly channelling that energy.
See, this for me is another thing entirely.

OWN your reasons. It’s frustrating, either in real life or anonymously on here to read something about how the husband is useless but the wife has ‘fallen pregnant’ after a contraception failure. It’s always multiple contraceptives used as well.

I know it’s none of my business, and I know it shouldn’t bother me - but it is annoying to see that and then there’s another unhappy woman with another child drowning under the weight of her responsibilities because she has a husband who has never and will never step up to the plate.

‘I wanted another child tbh and was willing to put up with this lump of lard, but actually three kids is more than I can handle on my own’ is much more honest.

clpsmum · 15/08/2020 12:55

Please don't blame the women for staying with them blame the men for being abusive and shit dads

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 13:01

[quote IsaLain]@Nomorepies

We cant control what other people do to us, but we can control out response. At some point you have to wonder why these women cant walk into a service available for them.

They arent responsible for the abuse, but people are responsible for themselves. Unless you're physically chained up in your home, you are able to leave and get help and never go back.[/quote]
Say that to a rape victim on here and see how it goes for you.

Hotandknackered · 15/08/2020 13:01

I feel like we know why men are shit dad's though. Also the bringing of abuse into this is starting to get really irritating. The op said she was talking about useless ones and hase repeatedly saif abuse is a different thing.

Men are shit because it's easier, society let's them and its a sweet deal. Getting a home managed and run for you is a bit of a no braimer for th if you can get away with it. So it's not really a whole thread is it?

But the op is asking the question because what doenst really make sense is repeatedly having children with a useless fucker.

I suppose a question to ask is why do men get away with this and what can we do to stop it? One of the answers is stop choosing to continue relationships and have relationships with useless fuckers.

Once again for those with poor comprension not talking about abusive relationships.

Neron · 15/08/2020 13:02

So many posters quick to shout 'abuser' about the husband/partner of an OP. It's shameful in a lot those threads that it isn't abuse at all, and is disrespectful to the women actually in DV or CC relationships.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 13:02

There was a spate of murder/suicides in the news a few years back, I don’t know if it’s happening less now or simply isn’t being reported, where men who were non resident parents were killing their children on contact visits and then killing themselves. I’m fairly sure there’s a considerable number of women who fear a similar scenario

My mother tried to leave when we were very small and my father, cheerfully by her account, offered to drive her and us to the coach station so she could go to my aunt who lived a few towns away. He took a detour on the way to the coach station up into the countryside and parked up to show her the exact spot where he would murder us and then kill himself during his first access weekend should she follow through with buying that coach ticket. When they got to the coach station she had changed her mind about leaving. She did try again a few months later and he ran with us DC, she thought he was putting us to bed so that they could talk over him moving out but instead he bundled us into the car and left. She was frantic, not surprisingly given his earlier threats, and he rang her from various pay phones to tell her that he would follow through on those threats if she called the police. He agreed to bring us back if she would stop being cruel to him(!) and mentally abusing him with her threats to end the relationship.

canigooutyet · 15/08/2020 13:02

When I told my ex it was over, my "reward" btw was a couple of broken ribs, stabbed, concussion, bleed on the brain; broken jaw, nose, and eye socket.
Whilst I was getting medical attention he was emptying the accounts because it was his "fucking" money. Lucky I did have an account he knew nothing about and I had bought a wage slip thing similar to the one from work. All kept in my work locker as it was the only place he couldn't get to. Paid in cash and was able to squirrel away a considerable amount to help fund the leave. Without being able to do this I would have had to stay longer.

It was financial, verbal, emotional and rape. It was the rape that made me want to go, I could get round the other stuff and ignore it. He was a smart bastard and was exceptionally careful around others, and a part of my mh is that I can easily mask all this shit. It's done, nothing I can do to change it, just try and prevent it happening it again, and makes no sense to dwell on it (but this is just me and I understand it's not the case for everyone)

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 13:02

But being that shit is abuse.

It is at the very least emotionally abusive

Hotandknackered · 15/08/2020 13:04

Also I 100% understand why women who are in abusive relationships can't access contraception or just walk into a police station. As some pp's have shared with us. Getting checked going to the loo certainly means hiding your pills is a no no. Also the fear of them being discovered ad what might happen isn't worth it. As it could literally be life threatening. But op wasn't talking about this.

Noneformethanks · 15/08/2020 13:04

Also. What actual good does it do for me to castigate myself and be castigated by others because I didn’t leave soon enough according to their standards?

I left as soon as I was able to. Mentally and physically. And that is a GOOD thing. I did my best for me and my kids.

How does it do any good to judge me?

Neron · 15/08/2020 13:05

*We cant control what other people do to us, but we can control out response. At some point you have to wonder why these women cant walk into a service available for them.

They arent responsible for the abuse, but people are responsible for themselves. Unless you're physically chained up in your home, you are able to leave and get help and never go back.

Say that to a rape victim on here and see how it goes for you.*

I am a rape victim, and I agree with the post.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 13:08

I suppose a question to ask is why do men get away with this and what can we do to stop it? One of the answers is stop choosing to continue relationships and have relationships with useless fuckers.

The support systems in this country make it difficult for women to leave useless fuckers and it is often better financially and socially to stay than to go it alone. Look at the attitudes expressed toward single mothers, including here on MN. A welfare system that keeps people in the poverty trap. The housing crisis. Shit memes on social media about how real women work at their relationships, that you don't burn down your whole house just because a bulb blew, and jokes about how useless men are and how women are bosses who hold everyone's shit together for them. All of which fuels the socialisation of women as the keepers of the family and the mentality of shut up and put up because it's better the devil you know.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 13:13

And to add to my above post, men in general can get away with being far more useless than women and their parenting is never held up to the same scrutiny or judgement as that of women. This has been going on forever and if a girl grows up with a poor male role model in a household where her mother does most of the donkey work and all of the child rearing then she is quite likely to emulate that in her own relationships and accept similar behaviour because that's just how it is/how men are. This brings me back to my earlier point, why are women to blame for the shit behaviour of men and why is it the responsibility of women to change the behaviour of men?

user1471462428 · 15/08/2020 13:15

I think the voting reflects our victim blaming society. I rarely talk to anyone about the abuse I suffer because of this. Very often his behaviour is excused it’s his culture, he works too hard, he isn’t used to being a father. I’m so sick of being gaslighted by my ex I don’t need it from my friends and family too. I decided it was over when he attempted to rape me in the next room to my daughter and I fought back. I had a thread on here and got several messages telling me that I didn’t deserve my children and they thought I should have just let him get on with it.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 13:18

If DH goes out without the DC, no one says a word. I go out with the DC and I will always get at least one person who will do a comedy double take and ask me if I've forgotten something because I've got no children with me. DH has never been asked in an interview about his childcare arrangements, either casually as part of general chit chat or outright, whereas I've been asked several times. DH is never told how lucky he is that he has a wife who cooks or cleans it sticks the washing machine on whereas I frequently get told how lucky I am that he helps out. When he has a night out he is never asked where the DC are, when I have a night out its usually one of the first questions that comes up if I see someone I know and I get told I'm so lucky that he baby sits.

These are the sort of subtle and not so subtle attitudes that enable men to get away with being useless.

PishPashPop · 15/08/2020 13:19

I dont know about other woman but there were many factors for me. I was with my abusive ex for 7 years. Hes not been allowed to contact or communicate with me or the children since 2017. They were 2.6 years old and 8 months old when I left.

Our first baby died 2 hours after he was born, I had 3 miscarriages after him and became desperate for a baby. My ex blamed his abusive behaviour on grief over losing our son and I believed him. It was only when I became pregnant with DD I realised he wasnt going to change.

I have PCOS and my 2nd DS was a lovely surprise. I stayed until he was 8 months old trying to have that "perfect family"

I learned the hard way that it just wasn't possible with my ex

They arent responsible for the abuse, but people are responsible for themselves. Unless you're physically chained up in your home, you are able to leave and get help and never go back

I was frightened to death of leaving my ex. I saw what he was capable of doing when he apparently loved me, what would he do if I did leave?

My ex made me feel like I was incapable of doing anything without him, I couldn't even walk to the shop without feeling worried and anxious. It took years but he slowly stole my self esteem and confidence and made me feel like I was useless in all aspects of my life

I got help moving away from the council and the police and started a new life in a new area where I didn't know anybody. It was so so hard and scary at first.

The fear of the unknown is very frightening and in think unless you have had someone reduce you to a shell of a person then you will never understand how hard it is to leave. How hard it is to start recovering from the damage they did.

I wouldn't wish that life on anyone. It is a horrendous life to live,

Lazt · 15/08/2020 13:24

Not read the whole thread but my mum has a ton of kids and she was would come under the term ‘shit’ parent. Not abusive but can’t fathom why she carried on having more.

TheNavigator · 15/08/2020 13:39

I wanted another child tbh and was willing to put up with this lump of lard

I think this pretty much sums up the thinking of many women, to my mind. A low opinion of men, reinforced by a society that lets men get away with being useless and lazy in the home, coupled with a desire for children and financial stability.

I think the anonymous vote reflects the fact most posters actually read the OP and are voting based on useless lazy blokes, not abusers.