To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

[Sayitagainwhydontyou]

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

Simply

Society looks down in general on women who have children with multiple fathers, far more than a woman who stays with an ineffectual man and has more children. If a woman doesn’t feel she has completed her family yet, and discovers after her first baby she has a useless father on her hands, what does she do? Leave and have another baby by a different man, not actually sure if he will turn out to be a good father or not; or stay and have another baby knowing her existing child’s father is pretty useless but aware of all the foibles of his particular brand of pathetic and she won’t have to deal with the sneering judgement for having what someone once (Unkindly) described in my earshot as a “mix and match” family.

I don’t know, how are men letting it happen? Why are men choosing to have unprotected sex, knowing full well they have little to no interest in the children it may produce?

Because they can. This isn't right. But a separate issue is that why is it that women, the ones (along with the children) are affected most enable this and/or do not prevent it even though they have the agency to do so.

@YouLikeTheBadOnesToo
Very good point and question. I think a lot if not most men are not the ones impacted by being a lazy disengaged parent. They are still getting to do what they want, see friends, have time at home relaxing and do little domestically. So I think men let it happen as it doesn't have a significant negative impact on them. Its not the men on here complaining about the situation it's the women.

[quote Ponoka7]@CodenameVillanelle

We aren't all starting off from the same place. Self esteem, socialisation etc all play a part and can make us more vulnerable. If you have good self worth you don't put up with the crap to stay. People are easily ground down, especially after giving birth, which then starts a cycle of spiralling self esteem and MH.

Within some families and society also feeds into this, women are validated by being Mothers, especially if they aren't chasing a career, or are achieving in other ways. Having multiple children means that they have something to do and means, that they don't have to explain why they haven't got much of a life.

Some women want to show that having their first wasn't a mistake. Others just want their children to be to one man.

Physical barriers to leaving are easier overcome than mental ones.

Then there's not realising how much more difficult having multiple children are, especially if your first was easy.[/quote]
I really agree with all of this. On top of this there's low expectations - a depressing number of women genuinely believe that no men clean, that no men can take good care of a baby, etc - and also the fact that, while they might complain about it on one level, some women do actually want to be in full domestic control and encourage the dynamic e.g. of their partner doing nothing with the children. A lot of women on MN might think it's awful and oppressive - I do, too - but look at the Mrs Hinch phenomenon, etc; a lot of women not just accept but revel in a 'traditional role' and defining themselves as partner and wife. Those women might moan about their partner but they wouldn't actually want an equal one.

I think a lot if not most men are not the ones impacted by being a lazy disengaged parent. They are still getting to do what they want, see friends, have time at home relaxing and do little domestically. So I think men let it happen as it doesn't have a significant negative impact on them. Its not the men on here complaining about the situation it's the women.

Yep. As has been said by numerous PPs, in an abusive relationship it's obviously different, and we shouldn't judge anyone as we have no idea what's going on behind closed doors. But if they're just a lazy man-child then there's no point having several and then complaining he doesn't do anything, he showed that after the first.

Mine didn't start being nasty until I was pregnant with the third. Then when the third was born completely changed. Women's Aid said that it was because he thought he'd trapped me.

@YouLikeTheBadOnesToo

“But if we aren't talking about abuse it is a choice. So how are women letting it happen?”

I don’t know, how are men letting it happen? Why are men choosing to have unprotected sex, knowing full well they have little to no interest in the children it may produce?

Because it's in their interests. They get a home run for them, love and support, and all the fun and pleasures of parenthood with little of the hassle or responsibility. Personally, I'd like a 'wife' too. I love family life but have stuck at one kid because I find the workload overwhelming. If I had that taken care of for me, I might have chosen a bigger family.

I think OP was fairly clear that she is not referring to abuse which is another kettle of fish. “Choice” as a concept is different in those cases.
I they OP is referring to women who CHOOSE (and yes they choose, stop making out that it is a passive process) to have another child with a man who is a shit father or husband. Yes it is his fault entirely he is shit but it is her CHOICE to have another child with them. Whether that is to have 2 kids or because her standards are so low who knows but stop making out that women have no choice in this. You can complain about them being a shit dad to their first child if it came out of the blue (rare but possible) You have to take some responsibility after that. Can’t have it both ways...

@PicsInRed did you miss the bit where i stated that A) I'm not talking about abusive men and B) that i spent years in an abusive relationship?

@Hotandknackered @FilthyforFirth thank you for actually reading what i wrote! Comprehension standards on Mumsnet seems pretty low this morning.

@Noneformethanks

N/C

Because he wouldn’t let me have access to contraception he binned my pills and he wouldn’t wear condoms.

I had no money that didn’t have to be accounted for so couldn’t access support. No car of my own we had one we shared and he monitored it

Because my babies and children were a little bit of sunshine in a crap marriage where I was physically, sexually, financially and emotionally abused.

Because no matter how many excuses I could make he was bigger and stronger than me and eventually it worked for him and I got pregnant.

Because no one believed me that the nice pleasant family man that they saw was abusive and nasty.

He sounds like the devil.

Could you not have hidden the pills from him? So then you were protected without his knowledge

[quote FilthyforFirth]@picsinred are all lazy/useless fathers abusive? I dont think they are personally bit if you do then we are talking at cross purposes.[/quote]
I think what people see on the surface isn't what's happening inside the family. The public sees the best of the family and if the best is shite, then just imagine what it's like inside.

We obviously aren't talking about women complaining that her H doesn't do the dishes much, or sometimes leaves pants on the floor. Those women aren't miserable, they're the ones having a slightly annoyed laugh with their mates. What we're talking about is men who leave their wives to do absolutely everything, and to run after them as well, like a pre-medieval servant. Those women are, as a PP so aptly put it, soul destroyed creatures - "drudges", totally worn down emotionally by a bad man using them as a dehumanised household appliance.

Those men aren't useless. They're abusive. It's just not an abuse language recognised by many women in that position or in this thread.

Yanbu. Women can be as feckless as men. But this is MN where everyone has invisible disabilities or MH issues or anxiety or or or. It’s never the case that someone is just feckless and makes shit decisions.

It depends really whether the woman is being controlled or even realises that she's being abused. In that instance, it's unreasonable to judge.

Others who have husbands/partners who merely lazy shits know what they're getting themselves into and can't really complain if they choose to have more; but those who know men are unsuitable fathers or have a volatile relationship and continue to have children are definitely unreasonable to subject their children to that.

Unfortunately we can all ignore things we don't want to see or acknowledge at times.

Yanbu op. It's also always related to some 'accidental' pregnancies.

@PicsInReddid you miss the bit where i stated that A) I'm not talking about abusive men and B) that i spent years in an abusive relationship?

A. Abuse comes in many forms and is often without punches to the face - often the most lifelong damage comes from the damage done inside a victim's head

B. So did I. That doesn't mean I can identify every abusive dynamic from the public image put on for the neighbours. My ex was the feckless but lovely guy. I was "lucky". Behind closed doors he was a monster who, aside from the nastier stuff, left me to do absoutely everything.

The "partner" who leaves their other half to carry the entire domestic weight is exhibiting a level of contempt which will almost certainly leech into other forms of abuse - which the outside world seldom sees or hears about and wouldn't believe of such a normal bloke even if they were told.

How about a focus on the men who are useless? How about challenging it when you see it or hear about it? How about blaming men for their shit behaviour rather than expecting women to do so,thing about it?

As for why women stay, presumably because they love the person concerned, want to keep their family together, are aware it could be worse, aren’t that bothered anyway? Every individual will have their own reasons.

Getting away from a controlling abusive relationship isn't that easy. If it was many wouldn't have stuck around to have the first child never mind subsequent children.

Depending on the age of the woman there can be additional stigma attached to being a single parent.

If things are this shit now, how shit will it be doing it alone.

Surely it's better for the kids to have both parents around?

People around them not supportive when they mention leaving. This is hard when people are telling you to give him a chance and start selling all his good points to you. Lack. of confidence etc so you believe you are the problem.

How would he even know that you had contraceptive pills? You can easily get your prescription renewed and no one is going to tell him. The only way for him to know was for you to tell him you had them

My surgery only does online renewal of prescriptions. Someone abusive who knew my passwords could easily control this.

@Winterwoollies

Spend your energy on being baffled why men are abusive, not on why their soul-destroyed victims stay with them.

This! Ask yourself why your first instinct was to blame women for men’s shitty behaviour?