To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

[Sayitagainwhydontyou]

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

I think OPs issue is in the final paragraph not the type of man in the first
The lazy man child. Or the one who wears a cloak of victimhood. The one that Doesn't help around the home. Has a baby planned or not and still can't bring himself to grow up and contribute to raising his child.

I totally understand where there is abuse. That's a different ball game. Women involved in these relationships often really don't have choices about sex and reproduction. That's definitely not my sister and I'm talking about situations where there's choice.

Scared to leave, hope that he will change, love bombing, confusion, fear of court proceedings, rape, coercive control... there are so many factors.

@Ethelfleda

Spend your energy on being baffled why men are abusive, not on why their soul-destroyed victims stay with them

This. I mean, come on OP... do better please.

But op isn't talking about abuse? They are talking about the lazy man child, the one who checks out of family life.

Because OP - people are selfish and feel the need to justify appalling decisions. However no one is permitted to call this - instead EVERYONE is suddenly in an 'abusive relationship' - (which quite honestly is a raging insult to those in genuinely abusive relationships.)

Would anyone on this forum actually admit to having kids with a selfish wanker who was an inadequate partner prior to pregnancy .. who they were perfectly aware would never improve ? And then - when the father lives down to expectations.. goes on to have another because she 'wants' one.. (or the ubiquitous 'accident')..

Highly unlikely. Personal responsibility is extremely unfashionable .. and why should they ? There is always a ready made riposte of 'don't judge' despite the times we live in - consisting of nothing but a constant stream of reality tv/social media inviting people to do exactly that.

Social Judgement played an important part of regulating family planning over the last century. Whilst causing a lot of negatives - ostracism of 'unmarried mothers' , backstreet abortion, divorce viewed as 'failure' to name but a few.. but social judgement also had some positives. Much less casual sex due to fear of pregnancy. Longer relationships before marriage .. and THEN babies born in to more stable families . Casual liaisons producing offspring to uninterested inadequate men (and occasionally women) also frowned upon.. (with the real victim being the child. )

So yes. Judgement isn't always a bad thing if a balance can be found. Today's 'don't judge anyone mantra' means anything goes.. including the reckless breeding of children with little thought going in to what happens when cute baby stage is finished..

I'm genuinely sorry for those who have suffered abusive realionships but the OP has clearly stated, several times she is explicitely not talking about abuse.

I also wonder the same thing. Seems so unfair to subsequent children. YANBU

This question is the equivalent of stating that slaves could have ended slavery had they simply downed tools - and therefore it was their fault it continued and that they were choosing for it to do so. Ludicrous when you consider the systemic support for that system, zero real support to leave intact and potentially great violence when you say "no".

These men are "useless" on purpose, that's a control tactic - she's so busy doing anything, how would she make plans? You must also remember that "useless" is the face he shows the world. No one knows the behind doors man like her indoors.

Tldr: Blame the oppressor for oppressing, not the victim for enduring in the hope of coming out the other side intact.

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel

Because OP - people are selfish and feel the need to justify appalling decisions. However no one is permitted to call this - instead EVERYONE is suddenly in an 'abusive relationship' - (which quite honestly is a raging insult to those in genuinely abusive relationships.)

Would anyone on this forum actually admit to having kids with a selfish wanker who was an inadequate partner prior to pregnancy .. who they were perfectly aware would never improve ? And then - when the father lives down to expectations.. goes on to have another because she 'wants' one.. (or the ubiquitous 'accident')..

Highly unlikely. Personal responsibility is extremely unfashionable .. and why should they ? There is always a ready made riposte of 'don't judge' despite the times we live in - consisting of nothing but a constant stream of reality tv/social media inviting people to do exactly that.

Social Judgement played an important part of regulating family planning over the last century. Whilst causing a lot of negatives - ostracism of 'unmarried mothers' , backstreet abortion, divorce viewed as 'failure' to name but a few.. but social judgement also had some positives. Much less casual sex due to fear of pregnancy. Longer relationships before marriage .. and THEN babies born in to more stable families . Casual liaisons producing offspring to uninterested inadequate men (and occasionally women) also frowned upon.. (with the real victim being the child. )

So yes. Judgement isn't always a bad thing if a balance can be found. Today's 'don't judge anyone mantra' means anything goes.. including the reckless breeding of children with little thought going in to what happens when cute baby stage is finished..

I was severely tempted to have a second child with XH. All through the first year I hoped and expected he would get better and when it became clear he wouldn't, I thought about engineering a pregnancy (not by tricking him, but he could be tempted into sex without a condom if I wanted to) so I could get the second child I wanted. HOWEVER I also knew I would be left literally holding the baby whether I stayed with him or not and that would have made my life so much harder. In the end we divorced and I focused on my one child and going back to university to get a professional qualification. I don't think that makes me better than other women but I do think my decisions were smarter (these ones at least). I now have one easy 13 year old and a career I can support us both with. I wouldn't have had that if I'd had more DC.

I cn see you, op, can't understand it - because you were abused long before you were pg. We're talking about women whose experienced wasn't like that, though, aren't we?

You said women whose abusers don't start being abusing until after they're pg, or even after the birth. That's a whole different kettle of fish, and you've not experienced that or anything like it. There's whole layers of emotion wrapped up there which the woman has to force her way through while she's heavily reliant on her abuser allowing her a little sunlight and in that tiny little beam she's got to get all the way up to a point where she can leave.

Honestly, for you it was easy, there was only you. It's like asking YOU, why did it take you so long?

@FilthyforFirth

I'm genuinely sorry for those who have suffered abusive realionships but the OP has clearly stated, several times she is explicitely not talking about abuse.

I also wonder the same thing. Seems so unfair to subsequent children. YANBU

She has ZERO idea what these men a truly like behind closed doors. She also fails to understand the psychological dynamics of abuse and exploitation.

Look up "emotiinal abuse" and "coercive control".

It can happen to any woman - even the "clever" ones who would never "let" it happen to them.

There's definitely a 'hope springs eternal' element. The old joke goes that men marry women hoping they'll never change, and women marry men hoping that they will change.

My best friend married a kind but openly extremely lazy man. Throughout their relationship she's put a, positive spin on everything because she wants the relationship to be a success. The scales have now truly fallen but she feels she can't leave him until her child is older, because of his close relationship to his nearby grandparents. She has resources and even owns a separate flat of her own, but she's waiting for her kids sake.

I do blame wider 'rom com' culture and the wedding industry etc which makes marriage seem like the end game for women, as opposed to the starting point of a partnership of equals. She was so swept away by the proposal, arrangements etc that she just ignored the reality of what he was actually like. She thought that on some level, he'd be different after marriage waved it's magic wand.

@CodenameVillanelle

We aren't all starting off from the same place. Self esteem, socialisation etc all play a part and can make us more vulnerable. If you have good self worth you don't put up with the crap to stay. People are easily ground down, especially after giving birth, which then starts a cycle of spiralling self esteem and MH.

Within some families and society also feeds into this, women are validated by being Mothers, especially if they aren't chasing a career, or are achieving in other ways. Having multiple children means that they have something to do and means, that they don't have to explain why they haven't got much of a life.

Some women want to show that having their first wasn't a mistake. Others just want their children to be to one man.

Physical barriers to leaving are easier overcome than mental ones.

Then there's not realising how much more difficult having multiple children are, especially if your first was easy.

YANBU OP. Absolutely baffles me I've read so many threads on here where the op complains about how awful her partner is, useless with the kids, serial cheater, doesn't lift a finger and then goes on to say that she's pregnant with her 2nd (or 3rd or 4th). I cannot understand why you would have another child with someone like that let alone stay with them.

But, as others have said, you aren't allowed to ask that question

Broodiness, broodiness, broodiness...

I wonder this too.
My neighbor told me a story once about how her partner left her week old twins alone and stole all her purse with all her money.
She admitted that he was a useless bastard but she had another baby with him the following year.
However she is a very damaged person herself and I can see her excusing him in the hope that he would change because she loved him, ( or thought she did).
It's not simple. Plus accidents happen sometimes too.

Sometimes despite your partner being shit, on balance you cope and your children are a source of such joy you choose to have more than one?

@PicsInRed

It can happen to any woman - even the "clever" ones who would never "let" it happen to them.

But if we aren't talking about abuse it is a choice. So how are women letting it happen?

Taking that the OP is talking about feckless Hs, not abusive ones...

Baffles me too. But I think it is the "well Im in this crap relationship anyway, I may as well get a gorgeous baby out of it" viewpoint. The H's behaviour is a by product that she cant/wont do anything about. Some women are terrified of being alone, and want somebody to love so have another child to put that love on. Totally their choice. But when they seem shocked that the H is useless and feckless and expect people to sympathise with them - nope, your choice, your responsibility

@picsinred are all lazy/useless fathers abusive? I dont think they are personally bit if you do then we are talking at cross purposes.

I think a lot of women have low expectations of men, and think their useless, lazy specimen is as good as it gets.

Eye-rolling about 'tsk, what are men like, they don't see the dirt' is common in real life though quickly pulled apart on MN

“But if we aren't talking about abuse it is a choice. So how are women letting it happen?”

I don’t know, how are men letting it happen? Why are men choosing to have unprotected sex, knowing full well they have little to no interest in the children it may produce?

People wear rose tinted glasses.
financially could be a reason to stay.
people are hopeful

[quote Ponoka7]@CodenameVillanelle

We aren't all starting off from the same place. Self esteem, socialisation etc all play a part and can make us more vulnerable. If you have good self worth you don't put up with the crap to stay. People are easily ground down, especially after giving birth, which then starts a cycle of spiralling self esteem and MH.

Within some families and society also feeds into this, women are validated by being Mothers, especially if they aren't chasing a career, or are achieving in other ways. Having multiple children means that they have something to do and means, that they don't have to explain why they haven't got much of a life.

Some women want to show that having their first wasn't a mistake. Others just want their children to be to one man.

Physical barriers to leaving are easier overcome than mental ones.

Then there's not realising how much more difficult having multiple children are, especially if your first was easy.[/quote]
Totally agree with this but also simpy that women make unwise decisions or are addicted to having babies.