To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

[Sayitagainwhydontyou]

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

Someone reminded me about something in a post above this one. Contraception.

In the case I mentioned the man refused to use condoms and cancelled an appointment to get the snip after 2 children.

The wife didn't get on with hormonal contraception at all. Choices were limited.

Fortunately after two children she left.

Yes, not all men want to have children to bind their wife closer and control them further. Plenty of lazy arse men don't really want children, it is the wife that begs and begs. And then is strangely surprised when lazy arse man isn't interested in the children he never even wanted. Obviously lazy arse man is scum, but what about the wife? What was she really expecting/hoping for? That is the conundrum I think OP was trying to fathom.

I have to admit I find this topic fascinating. I grew up in an abusive household where my biological father would beat my mum if she cooked the wrong meal for tea or failed to close the curtains properly. My brother and I were locked under the stairs or shut in cupboards.

I was told that we had to endure this is as"where would we have gone?"

I was lead to believe that this abuse started because "we" came along.

I felt a tremendous amount of guilt for years, until I found out that infact the abuse had started when they were just boyfriend and girlfriend. They weren't married, not living together and my mum was financially independent.

I am now mid forties and I still dont understand why my mum married my father or had children with him when she knew what he was capable of.

I have no respect for my mum and although I love her it has caused a massive divide in our relationship.

I have asked many questions over the years. She said it was because she loved him. She said she thought she could change him. She said she wanted to have children and that she didn't want to lose her home ( she didn't work).

I'm tired of the bar being constantly set so low for women or the fact that women are always portrayed as victims who aren't capable of making better choices.

Things need to change. Women in general need to be more self sufficient and not rely on men for money or a certain standard of living. They shouldn't have children just because they want one, they are not pets or a band aid for a bad relationship.

Women need to stop looking for men to save them and save themselves.

disorganised -totally agree.

I wish we could have a discussion about what rubbish men do without putting so much emphasise on the women who stay longer than they should do.

Then by all means** HAVE that discussion. Start a thread with that very premise.. nothing to stop you. !

It just isn't the subject of THIS thread where the OP clearly said she wasn't talking about relationships where abuse is a factor !

dumakey - interesting to hear the voice of child in that circumstance. Children, truly have no agency sadly.

Great post Buxx Thank you for actually answering the question and contributing to the discussion that the OP was obviously looking for..

Oh, and rape/coercion without contraception easily leads to pregnancies. Further trapping women. Harder to leave with more children.

For those with just useless partners, sometimes women grow up thinking this is their lot. Men down pub, women at home sorta shit.

lemonsandlimes123

No agency at all. What made it worse is that my mum, after 13 years, did leave my bioligical father. She then met my step dad. He wasnt physically abusive to her. But if he didn't like what she was wearing she would go and get changed. If he didnt like what was for tea she would make him something different. My brother and I would have to sit and eat it even if that meant sitting there for 3 hours.

I constantly stood up for my mum. Told her how lovely she looked and how she should wear what she wanted. My mum would always have a go at me, my stepdad found it amusing. I just really wanted her to stand up for herself. It just wasnt in her to do it. He eventually left her for a younger model. And now it's been over 20 years since they divorced she still goes on about how much she loved him and how she would have allowed him an open marriage on his side, just as long as he stayed. It drives me insane.

Dumakey - Sorry that you had to grow up in such a horrible environment. Hope you are in a better place now.

So a man is either an excellent father or abusive? Interesting. Well it's not, some are just feckless fathers who women believe will for some reason give up doing their hobby every weekend or start helping around the house when they have a baby.

lemonsandlimes123

I am in an amazing place, thank you. I am happily married with two boys, a job I enjoy and life is good.

Life hasn't always been kind, but the decisions we make affect our lives massively. I wasnt prepared to live a "bad" life and blame it on my childhood or follow in the footsteps of my mother.

Thanks to being brought up that way I knew exactly what I didnt want my life to look like and that included my partner/ husband. My first husband cheated on me but I knew I was worth more, so I left. Best decision ever.

I believe that in general, women have a lot more agency over their lives than maybe they would like to accept. Sometimes you have to make tough choices, but you make them because you are an adult. Life isnt a fairytale and we dont always get what we want, but you only get one life and everyone deserves to be happy.

dumakey - i think you have really nailed it there. Glad things are going well for you.

You know, on those threads where a woman comes on and moans her husband is a lazy arse, he’s been home all day didn’t bother hanging out the washing and hasn’t prepared dinner despite wife having done all the prep - kids totally left to their own devices but y’know they’re 7 and 9 so not too bad but as an aside he was useless when they were small and claimed he would ‘be sick’ if he had to change a nappy - there’s normally one or two posters who claim it’s abuse. Not the rafts here. Normally, it’s a case of - what a lazy cunt, stop doing his washing and don’t feed him. I’ve participated on many of them.

Add in ‘and I’m pregnant again’ and suddenly it’s definitely abuse? Even when someone takes the time to advance search and this particular poster posted six months ago about how broody they were and they knew it would be find financially but how could they make husband be more engaged?

We all KNOW those posts happen. We all KNOW that isn’t abuse. We all KNOW there’s that one poster who will point out that they were told things wouldn’t change - that’s always the point a ‘multiple contraception failure’ happened .

Women have agency. Women are abused, terribly. But I’m sorry - claiming my above example is abuse and not just a woman who’s made a poor decision to please herself - diminishes the abuse that others have gone through.

I believe that in general, women have a lot more agency over their lives than maybe they would like to accept.

I think you have a good point there. Having agency over your own life is actually a really scary prospect and I'm not convinced we are bringing up the next generation with the skills and confidence to realise their own autonomy. I'd say that sadly we are actually going backwards thanks to the perfect life Instagram group think.

If the question from OP was 'why do women have further children with lazy, feckless men', why didn't she just say that, instead of a long spiel about abusive men?

Abuse didn't even need to be mentioned. It is triggering from many women who suffered it, and then have the finger pointed at them by people like the OP who blames them for (?) how her life turned out. As in her statement

This is the issue though - why does a woman's "strong urge" to have a child outweigh the child's right to a good life? Why is it fair to saddle children with useless fathers who'll neglect and ignore them, often causing lifelong emotional issues, just because you wanted to have a baby?

Pretty obvious @fuckingcovid that OP put all that in as she’s been here before and knew that asking this question would bring everybody in to say it’s always abuse. It always does. Same as when you start a thread about vaccines there’s always several very hurt posters who have valid medical reasons not to vaccinate but somehow are incapable of understanding that this doesn’t apply to them. No point putting it in second or third posts as many don’t read them.

The opening post is completely innocuous. If it’s triggering for some, they can hide the post and just not read it?

@MsEllany It seems to me OP just wants to make women who have children who don't have the ideal father, of any type, feel bad. If you read her statement it is clearly victim blaming, even if the woman is only guilty of poor choices.

I had a child with my husband (who I'd known for 4 years before wedding). The child was the much wanted result of IVF (ICSI). He seemed devoted to him. Then, after I became pg a 2nd time (ICSI again) he changed and became violent and abusive to me. I didn't see it coming. Had he been in my 1st pregnancy the way he was in my 2nd (including asking me to abort) then I would not have had a 2nd child.
It took me some time to leave as I was disabled and unable to work.
Victim blaming never helps.
You might well ask why men who don't wish to respect their partners / don't really want their children decide to have them anyway?

And, no, I don't regret either of my children but I regret who I had them with.

fuckingcovid I don't get that from the original post at all. I don't see victim blaming but a open discussion about root causes on the patterns of behaviour.

But that is what a forum is about, everyone bringing a different perspective.

This is the issue though - why does a woman's "strong urge" to have a child outweigh the child's right to a good life? Why is it fair to saddle children with useless fathers who'll neglect and ignore them, often causing lifelong emotional issues, just because you wanted to have a baby?

Why is it fair to saddle children with any disadvantage? You're insinuating these women are selfish. That's a slippery slope. Deciding to have a child is always a selfish decision is it not?

Should poor people, those with disabilities/health issues etc etc. not have DC then?

You speak about a lack of comprehension on this thread, yet you seem to lack basic reasoning skills yourself if you REALLY can't understand the reasons why some women decide to have children in less than ideal relationships.

Oh and as aside. Having a crappy father does not mean a child won't have a good life. A fantastic mother often negates the impact of a rubbish father - I'm the product of such a union and I had a wonderful childhood. I'm certainly glad my mum decided to go ahead and indulge her "selfish" whims to have me!

@Sayitagainwhydontyou

I just want to be clear here that I'm aware you cannot always identify an abusive relationship from the outside. I am very well aware that a man may appear useless to bystanders and in fact be abusive. I know that abuse is insidious and pervasive and in many cases near impossible to escape. I know that abused women find themselves without contraceptive options, coerced into pregnancy, and i have zero judgement for those women. None. Pride, admiration and the utmost respect, yes. Judgement no.

I'm not talking about men who appear merely useless, I'm talking about men who are merely useless. And no, i don't think letting your partner shoulder the burden of "wife work" is abuse. I think it's opportunistic laziness and learned helplessness and shitty selfish entitlement. I don't understand why women have more than one child with men like that.

Totally agree.

You can get a contraception injection at the GP that lasts 3 months. No one has to know you've had it. You can get an IUD implanted. Again no one knows you've had it. They last for years. There are so many contraception options that don't require male participation and aren't even aware of. No one needs to have a baby they don't want.

IUD has strings. He would have felt them.

Injection leaves a mark. With a plaster. He would have asked.

How in the hell was I supposed to get to the doctor to get them?