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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To understand the first, but not the second, third, fourth...

329 replies

Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 08:59

I know that lots of men only show their true nature once children are born, that abuse very commonly starts with pregnancy, and that many women are completely blindsided when their husbands become abusive/neglectful/selfish/useless/detatched after they have a baby...

I am absolutely not saying "what possessed you to have a baby with this man??"

But i am baffled by women who's partners are shit dads, who then go on to have more children with them. It just seems so hugely unfair on the kids.

OP posts:
fuckingcovid · 15/08/2020 16:35

This is the issue though - why does a woman's "strong urge" to have a child outweigh the child's right to a good life? Why is it fair to saddle children with useless fathers who'll neglect and ignore them, often causing lifelong emotional issues, just because you wanted to have a baby?

So this is your real issue then?

Not a genuine question about understanding the incredible complexity of an abusive relationship?

Many many children have abusive fathers whose mothers work their socks off to provide for, protect from, and get them away from their fathers and give them a secure, emotionally protected life, but you think you have the right to denigrate their efforts by this passive aggressive post.

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:35

noneforme - no one is talking about your ex! Or do you simply not believe that there are men who are lazy bastards but not abusive like your ex?

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:37

I know the op was asking about shit relationships as opposed to abusive ones (there's a thin dividing line between the two in my opinion), but the same reasons probably apply to relationships that are bad as those that are recognisably abusive.

dworky · 15/08/2020 16:38

Why do abusive men continue having children?

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:41

Why do abusive men continue having children?

Good question and turns the original question on it's head.

Because it ties the women even more to the abuser. That's why abuse frequently starts when the woman is first pregnant. The man thinks he's trapped her.

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:41

dworky - this thread is not meant to be about abusive relationships as the OP made very clear. you can start a thread about abusive men if that is what you want to discuss

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:42

For goodness sake, threads evolve. It's a conversation. Stop trying to shut other women down.

Gancanny · 15/08/2020 16:45

It is not derailing though to say that some of the men perceived from the outside as "useless" are in fact, behind closed doors, abusive.

It is also not derailing to way that there is crossover between the reasons why women stay with abusive men and the reasons why they stay with useless men.

It is also not derailing to say that the underlying issues cannot be easily resolved by simply leaving the relationship.

It is also not derailing to say that the useless men are the ones at fault, not the women, and that it is not the responsibility of women to mitigate the actions of useless men.

It is also not derailing when a debate moves on from the original question posted as the discussion opens up to incorporate wider issues.

It is not up to you to say what should and should not be posted or what is and is not of value on the thread @lemonsandlimes123

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:46

The irony of the last two posts!

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:46

Good post Gancanny and I couldn't agree more.

TheNavigator · 15/08/2020 16:47

My lazy feckless uncle didn't want children. My auntie begged him to let her have a baby and he reluctantly agreed they would have just one child, but since he didn't want children he couldn't be expected to do any of the childcare. So they had a child and of course he was a lazy useless father.

I love my auntie, but she is the queen of poor decisions and that was a really bad one. Why not leave the loser and find a decent man to have a child with? It is a mystery to me. Of course, my poor wee cousin was thoroughly screwed up by her parents, who use her as a weapon in their bad marriage.

So who is most at fault? My uncle was clear he didn't want children and wouldn't do anything to help if she insisted on having one. My auntie was desparate for a baby - but why with him? Fault on both sides, if you ask me.

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:48

Hmm, perhaps your definition of irony is different to mine.

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:50

But I can see that you are looking to make this thread some sort of survivor support circle so crack on!

lemonsandlimes123 · 15/08/2020 16:51

Wrong Navigator - your auntie was in an horrendous abusive relationship and didn't know her own mind. That is the only acceptable narrative.

disorganisedsecretsquirrel · 15/08/2020 16:51

@knittingaddict

Why do abusive men continue having children?

Good question and turns the original question on it's head.

Because it ties the women even more to the abuser. That's why abuse frequently starts when the woman is first pregnant. The man thinks he's trapped her.

How on Earth does this 'turn the question on its head '

I completely dispair of reading comprehension on here sometimes..

This thread is NOT about abuse in anyway. On his head or in its feet. The OP SPECIFICALLY stated in her opening post that women in abusive relationships were NOT the subject under discussion.

The post was about women making poor choices when abuse is NOT A FACTOR IN ANYWAY..

But it seems MN can not comprehend this question and instead seems to be saying that a man being a feckless parent is an abuser and that a woman in such a relationship is not responsible for her actions because she must always in some way be the victim of abuse..

I would say this is nonsense . Just read the 'stately homes ' thread for 5 minutes and tell me if you really believe ALL women in poor relationships are oppressed victims..

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 16:56

I can see that it's a waste of wear and tear on my keyboard to have an argument/discussion with you lemons.

You have an opinion, but there's a nasty edge to what you are saying and how you are saying it that says everything I need to know.

Here's hoping that all those women in just plain bad or abusive relationships get some support and find the strength to leave. Flowers

Shmithecat2 · 15/08/2020 16:58

YANBU. Although I'm not coming from an abusive angle at all. I'd would've loved a 2nd, even though DH is fucking useless when it comes to parenting. Leaves everything to me unless specifically asked to do something, spends all his spare time on his hobbies, would never think to do anything special or dedicated with DS. He is the breadwinner and provides well in that sense, we have a nice lifestyle. But it seems he thinks that's were his obligations as a father end.
If he had agreed though, I would happily have had another with him as rightly or wrongly, I would like my children to all have the same father. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Colom · 15/08/2020 16:59

I wanted a sibling for my child. I knew I would cope financially/practically as a single parent to two if it ended up that way. I didn't want children from different fathers. I was doing all the work anyway so it wouldn't make a massive difference having another child (I was a bit wrong on that front admittedly Grin)

I too was horribly judgmental before finding myself in this situation. I too blamed women for the inadequacies of men. I am actually grateful in a weird way for my crap husband - I never knew the importance of feminism until I had children with a sub-par father. It's made me much more empathetic, knowledgeable on women's issues and a better, more tolerant person in general - silver linings and all that Jazz!

Original poster
Sayitagainwhydontyou · 15/08/2020 17:03

I just want to be clear here that I'm aware you cannot always identify an abusive relationship from the outside. I am very well aware that a man may appear useless to bystanders and in fact be abusive. I know that abuse is insidious and pervasive and in many cases near impossible to escape. I know that abused women find themselves without contraceptive options, coerced into pregnancy, and i have zero judgement for those women. None. Pride, admiration and the utmost respect, yes. Judgement no.

I'm not talking about men who appear merely useless, I'm talking about men who are merely useless. And no, i don't think letting your partner shoulder the burden of "wife work" is abuse. I think it's opportunistic laziness and learned helplessness and shitty selfish entitlement. I don't understand why women have more than one child with men like that.

OP posts:
Buxx · 15/08/2020 17:05

I think this thread is possibly triggering for some survivors of abuse. It's a horrendous ordeal that you have survived and you should be justly proud of your own inner strength and tenacity to make a better life for your kids. Flowers

But I do agree with the OP that there does need to be a dialogue around having children with feckless men. One that is separate from situations in which there is domestic abuse. We as women do ourselves a disservice by relying on the abuse narrative rather than looking at our own role. If we don't openly and honestly talk about the factors that drive the decision making process we are saddling our daughters with repeating the same mistakes over and over. At some point we have to acknowledge our active participation in enabling a situation to occur rather than lamenting that it has occurred.

Whilst there does need to be discussion on why men encourage these scenarios we do need to talk about our own role without deflection or flinching from self analysis.

knittingaddict · 15/08/2020 17:06

disorganised I do conflate bad relationships with abusive ones because that's my experience. Someone I love looked from the outside that they were in a bad marriage. Turned out that it was abusive.

The man in question had children because it bound his wife even closer to him, made her even more dependant on him.

I wish we could have a discussion about what rubbish men do without putting so much emphasise on the women who stay longer than they should do.

I think we should ask why are there so many men like this out there? Why there is so little support for women in these cases? Why we have threads like this?

BalloonSlayer · 15/08/2020 17:10

The example I know was very similar to the auntie of @thenavigator.

Except man already had 2 DCs to 2 different women, unwillingly, so he said, as he hadn't wanted DC.

He had been a crap Dad to both but to be fair he did get a vasectomy to prevent any more. My friend begged him to have it reversed, which he did reluctantly. Then he was a crap Dad! Actually he seemed quite a loving Dad to me but my friend and his DC say he was crap.

gluteustothemaximus · 15/08/2020 17:12

Spend your energy on being baffled why men are abusive, not on why their soul-destroyed victims stay with them.

This.

disorganisedsecretsquirrel · 15/08/2020 17:13

Personally Sayitagainwhydontyou I would give up.
Your thread has been well and truly hijacked as an abuse survivors support thread - the ethos of which is fine but not the subject of your post.

I get what you are asking. My answer for what it's worth is simple.

Instant gratification. Women who want a child will often not be too choosy as to who they have it with. There is no planning. It's just a mission to have kids as some form of validation.. it's short sighted and stupid. They think of themselves before the children they intend to have.. without a single thought to their life chances, upbringing, family support, ability to provide or with any real discussion with the sperm donor.

Yes - sorry to say folks there are many feckless women out there only to happy to 'blame' whoever for their own self centred decisions without coming within a mile of any form of abuse. In fact if there is any abuse in the relationship it is often with woman as perpetrator and child as victim.. a convenient scapegoat for their poor decisions and lack of personal responsibility.