To ask your opinion on this #WorldBreastfeedingWeek debate

[Napqueen1234]

Sorry if this sounds childish referred to social media etc but interested to canvas opinions.

A friend of mine shared a post on Instagram re world breastfeeding week about how it’s the best thing for baby and mum, so proud she could do it, perseverance etc. She’s a very zealous breastfeeder generally (and why not!) and was a good person to go to for advice when I was struggling although did say she was ‘disappointed I had given in’ after 2 months. Anyway!

Another friend then shared a post about Fed Is Best (she struggled bf and switched to formula and has always found it difficult seeing bf women, a lot of guilt and sadness that I feel she needs to process somehow) and how WBW is just another stick to beat ‘failed breast feeders’ with and anyone who wants to breastfeed gets loads of support from midwives etc and generally society nowadays so it isn’t needed.

Both have since messaged me about the other stating they are upset (we are a close group of 4, the other doesn’t have DC so I suppose I’m mediator). Friend one feels like this is one week where BF should be celebrated and acknowledged is better. Friend two feels mother’s should be more understanding to the feelings of those that couldn’t breastfeed and not ‘brag’.

I have remained fairly moderate and tried to calm things but who do you think is right?

YABU- it’s world breastfeeding week! It’s best let them have their moment.

YANBU- it can make women feel very sad who didn’t bf or who ‘failed’ so social media posts should be mindful of this.

I agree with @Kaiserin
I'm a neonatal nurse and I still get annoyed with our "breastfeeding champions" at work....they are absolutely brilliant if you want to breastfeed and will help you night and day to do so. BUT most of them will push breastfeeding like it's a religion and if a mum mentions a bottle the mum is made to feel a failure. I've known mums complain about them as they felt bullied.
I've seen it time and time again.
I have said to a mum numerous times when shes been a weeping, knackered mess. Do you want to breastfeed? Will you breastfeed at home? They say no and you can literally see the relief on their face when I start talking about bottles etc
These mums are even made to feel bad if they want to bottle feed expressed breast milk!
It's not on and I'm sick of it. I agree breast feeding is amazing if it works and the mum wants to do it, but, certainly where I work there is too much pressure.

BF does need 'help' initially..A magnificent midwife helped me..had she not, I'd had given up.

Once established it is easy..Bottles are such a faff...never used one, going straight to a 'beaker' cup.
It is nice to see mothers BF discreetly in public now..But the right help initially is what is needed.

What is a ''knock out bottle?'' It sounds alarming.

Hey, the third would derail is my fault, I'm sorry. I was reading the tread in the small hours and the comment annoyed me and I shouldn't have repeated. My apologies.

I stand by the gist of the post though that bf is knackering (where ever its done) saying this and celebrating it occassionally it is not a bad thing.

It baffles me that it is generally accepted that the third trimester is generally accepted as uncomfortable and tireing, but continuing to grow the baby via the energy of your own body beyond that is not regarded in the same way.

Surely if breastfeeding is so hard that that’s why the majority don’t do it, it is worthy or celebrating?

It wasn’t my experience and I think a lot of the prevailing narrative puts pregnant women off, but god forbid a woman says it wasn’t the worst thing in the world, you’re asking to get called smug.

This is an interesting conversation.

The phrase ‘Breast is best’ is highly objectional but since it was invented by formula companies that is kind of to be expected. For decades before the fed is best movement, the breastfeeding promotion advocates rallied against the phrase.

Fed is best is even more nonsensical than breast is best. Fed is essential.

The idea that breastfeeding fails because we hyper focus on it is not supported by the research evidence anymore than the idea that women around the globe’ are breastfeeding their babies without issues. I remember reading research on the rates of sub clinical and clinical mastitis in Malawi and the impact of that on women’s health.
There are countries where a large number of breastfed children are suffering from severe acute malnutrition. Very few countries have rates of exclusive breastfeeding above 50% by three months and most of those that do are European. Introducing early supplementary foods whether proprietary formula or solids or animal milk is common globally.

The issues that keep breastfeeding rates low are multiple and complicated. Personally I think they include

1. The lack of information and knowledge of the normal feeding/sleeping behaviour of breastfed infants and toddlers
2. Lack of both low level and highly skilled bf support. All women who want to breastfeed deserve access to both and easy access. At the moment it is patchwork and also there are few with extremely high level skills in bf management. An NHS speciality of lactation consultant would help with recognised training and benchmarked skill levels.

3.sexualisation of breasts. Until we move past the idea that breastfeeding is humorous ‘bitty’etc or sexual and should therefore be discreet we aren’t going to improve breastfeeding rates

1. Formula/bottle company advertising. Formula is fine but it doesn’t need advertising. People know it exists and the formula companies serve nobody. Their aim is to undermine breastfeeding and to push a more expensive product onto parents who are formula feeding.

I mean kudos to them, I have rarely seen global multinationals who sell an essential high profit product that costs little to produce so defended and revered. Formula companies are no better than ‘big pharma’. Parents who need (or want) to give formula pay through the nose for formula companies’ marketing. The law around promotions is a drop in the ocean compared to the fact that a £3 tin of formula is £12+ to buy. If the U.K. wants to normalise breastfeeding or infact if it even wants to support parents rather than large tax avoiding multinationals, it would ban formula ads. Nobody needs them.

1. The demands on women, in terms of expectations of employment, parenting, lifestyle etc. Apparently you should exclusively breastfeed your baby while providing stimulation via multiple activities, teaching them to sleep. Possibly providing parenting for older children, avoiding junk food, cooking from scratch, returning to

paid employment etc etc etc. Real life people cant do everything so of course often breastfeeding will have to go.

I agree with Kaiserin. This is a society problem not an individual problem in that the obstacles to BFing are caused by society but the individual then blames herself (how convenient). Women are then pitted against each other when the anger should actually be directed elsewhere - again very convenient for the formula companies.

Anecdotally you are more likely to BF if your mum BF you. So although BF is much more encouraged now if you go back to say the 80s (when for instance my Mil was told “you don’t have enough milk/baby is too hungry”)there was less knowledge and people like my Mil pass this information down to their daughter “you might not have enough milk like me” which then creates an expectation that BF will not work.

I agree with this 100%

'I still get annoyed with our "breastfeeding champions" at work....they are absolutely brilliant if you want to breastfeed and will help you night and day to do so. BUT most of them will push breastfeeding like it's a religion and if a mum mentions a bottle the mum is made to feel a failure. I've known mums complain about them as they felt bullied.
I've seen it time and time again.'

My Goodness me, it sounds as if these bullies need renaming.

@TheDIsiilusionedAnarchist

This is an interesting conversation.

The phrase ‘Breast is best’ is highly objectional but since it was invented by formula companies that is kind of to be expected. For decades before the fed is best movement, the breastfeeding promotion advocates rallied against the phrase.

Fed is best is even more nonsensical than breast is best. Fed is essential.

The idea that breastfeeding fails because we hyper focus on it is not supported by the research evidence anymore than the idea that women around the globe’ are breastfeeding their babies without issues. I remember reading research on the rates of sub clinical and clinical mastitis in Malawi and the impact of that on women’s health.
There are countries where a large number of breastfed children are suffering from severe acute malnutrition. Very few countries have rates of exclusive breastfeeding above 50% by three months and most of those that do are European. Introducing early supplementary foods whether proprietary formula or solids or animal milk is common globally.

The issues that keep breastfeeding rates low are multiple and complicated. Personally I think they include

1. The lack of information and knowledge of the normal feeding/sleeping behaviour of breastfed infants and toddlers
2. Lack of both low level and highly skilled bf support. All women who want to breastfeed deserve access to both and easy access. At the moment it is patchwork and also there are few with extremely high level skills in bf management. An NHS speciality of lactation consultant would help with recognised training and benchmarked skill levels.

3.sexualisation of breasts. Until we move past the idea that breastfeeding is humorous ‘bitty’etc or sexual and should therefore be discreet we aren’t going to improve breastfeeding rates

1. Formula/bottle company advertising. Formula is fine but it doesn’t need advertising. People know it exists and the formula companies serve nobody. Their aim is to undermine breastfeeding and to push a more expensive product onto parents who are formula feeding.

I mean kudos to them, I have rarely seen global multinationals who sell an essential high profit product that costs little to produce so defended and revered. Formula companies are no better than ‘big pharma’. Parents who need (or want) to give formula pay through the nose for formula companies’ marketing. The law around promotions is a drop in the ocean compared to the fact that a £3 tin of formula is £12+ to buy. If the U.K. wants to normalise breastfeeding or infact if it even wants to support parents rather than large tax avoiding multinationals, it would ban formula ads. Nobody needs them.

1. The demands on women, in terms of expectations of employment, parenting, lifestyle etc. Apparently you should exclusively breastfeed your baby while providing stimulation via multiple activities, teaching them to sleep. Possibly providing parenting for older children, avoiding junk food, cooking from scratch, returning to

paid employment etc etc etc. Real life people cant do everything so of course often breastfeeding will have to go.

Excellent post.

@Kaiserin you hit the nail on the head with that description
I tried to BF, but a combination of issues with both me and baby meant it didn't work out. I had a fantastic midwife who really helped and we made some progress but despite everything it wasn't enough to sustain my baby so I also gave formula. On my last day in hospital I had a horrendous midwife who literally snatched the bottle from my hand and was very aggressive in her breast is best mantra. Tried helping me with baby's latch, baby was screaming, kicking my csection wound, I was crying in pain and out of feeling like a failure. It was horrible. I had gone from feeling disappointed BF wasn't working out but still committed to trying it again once home to feeling like a failure and scared to try again. I still tried for a while at home but my confidence and mindset had completely changed and it was so much harder.
Unfortunately due to covid all mother and baby groups have been cancelled in my area but turns out I couldn't have gone to any of them anyway - they are all ran by BF support organisations or are ran as BF groups. It's almost as if there is a belief that only BF mothers need support. I'd love real life support with other mothers. It's still tough, even with a bottle. Bottles are the biggest pain in the hole, and a nightmare when we want to go somewhere for the day. From a convenience point of view I'd choose my boobs any day of the week. Even if breast wasn't best I wanted it to work out for that reason alone.
I'm acutely aware that breast is best, it hurts me deeply my baby isnt getting the best. I think all women are aware of the benefits of BF. The pressure of breast is best loomed over me. Very few people do well under pressure, if we took that pressure away I think BF rates would rise.
I do find BFW posts difficult as its a reminder that my baby isnt getting the best or that I'm not a "strong momma" or "warrior woman" because I don't BF. Social media can be a bit OTT and inadvertently shaming at times.

The idea that breastfeeding fails because we hyper focus on it is not supported by the research evidence

@TheDIsiilusionedAnarchist well has there been a study on this?

YABU - breastfeeding is hard work and it deserves to be celebrated.
Being a mother is hard work. Should we cancel Mother's Day in case it offends those who cannot be mothers, or those who have lost their mothers? Of course not. We should be sensitive, but breastfeeders have the right to celebrate their journey.

It’s a few pages ago but I agree with @NotMyTimes that ‘breast is best’ is divisive as it implies a judgment on FF, and of course it’s upsetting for mothers to be told they’re not doing their best for their child. Perhaps there is a better phrase that could be used which doesn’t load guilt on those for whom bf doesn’t turn out to be an option.

That’s especially true now when breastfeeding clinics have all been cancelled due to covid (at least round my way). It’s loading the pressure on women when there is even less support than usual. In fact I left hospital 8 weeks ago with not a single person having helped me with feeding (despite my request).

In terms of misogyny, I think of anything it’s a little misogynistic to make women feel shit if they don’t want to breastfeed or that their bodies have failed to do the best for their child if they try and it doesn’t work.

So I come back to what I said on page 1 which is I think we should be able to promote and celebrate breastfeeding (which is a wonderful thing) in a sensitive way which acknowledges it isn’t the right thing for everyone and that those who formula feed have not provided second-best care for their child.

Parenting is hard enough, let’s all support each other’s feeding journeys

@AnneLovesGilbert

It wasn’t my experience and I think a lot of the prevailing narrative puts pregnant women off, but god forbid a woman says it wasn’t the worst thing in the world, you’re asking to get called smug.

I found breastfeeding really, really easy. Huge supply, no mastitis, didnt get so much as a moment of pain or a cracked nipple.

If somebody asked me, I would share my 'story'. Or if it was relevant to post it on here I would. But I wouldn't plaster it all over Facebook. Why? For the same reasons I wouldn't do a post about the fact my baby has always slept through the night, or about the gory details of her forceps delivery. Because it is smug and self congratulatory, and I have manners; because nobody wants to hear about my boobs or bodily functions; because it wont serve any useful purpose; because I can 'feel' proud of my breastfeeding efforts without feeling the need to inform other people; and because in the scheme of parenting, breastfeeding is the least of my 'achievements'.

Does anyone else find the phrase 'breastfeeding journey' as irritating as I do by the way?

@AnneLovesGilbert

Surely if breastfeeding is so hard that that’s why the majority don’t do it, it is worthy or celebrating?

It wasn’t my experience and I think a lot of the prevailing narrative puts pregnant women off, but god forbid a woman says it wasn’t the worst thing in the world, you’re asking to get called smug.

I can only speak for myself but if someone acknowledges breastfeeding came easily to them I don’t find that smug, any more than I find it smug if someone conceived after one cycle instead of 15. It’s mainly luck. Likewise if someone wants to talk about finding it hard, that can provide encouragement to others struggling that they’re not alone.

What I find a little more irritating are those who go on about there rarely being a medical reason a woman can’t breastfeed, because this invalidates the reasons for stopping of women who found it too painful or distressing or a whole host of other every valid reasons to switch to formula.

Although I’ve never used it, I don’t think, I can see how the phrase breastfeeding journey would work well for me. It definitely fits the journey descriptor

DC1- really wanted to breastfeed, produced minimal amounts, I now know secondary to hypoplasia, was never able to orally feed. No access to the level of skilled breastfeeding support I needed. Limited supply of donor milk, so
Onto formula and expressing all the time. She did eventually die of an infection that breastmilk
is highly protective against.

DC2- more hypoplasia and breastfeeding with an SNS for 15 months plus formula in bottles. Chose not to pump as sanity was also high on the agenda and I was breastfeeding in the context of severe perinatal mental illness.

DC3- better supply but tongue tie, absolutely could not manage a bottle from birth and very slow weight gain despite enormous quantities of
Formula. Again absolutely no access even privately to really high level bf support. We breastfed with SNS for 7 months before direct breastfeeding worked out with solids. Still going at 19 months but now dealing with aversion.

I’d call that a journey, it certainly wasn’t just feeding. It wasn’t breast or formula or a bit of both. And it was definitely not fitting anywhere. Breastfeeding groups don’t believe in low supply and formula advocates can’t see why you’d bother with all that fuss.

I can only speak for myself but if someone acknowledges breastfeeding came easily to them I don’t find that smug, any more than I find it smug if someone conceived after one cycle instead of 15. It’s mainly luck. Likewise if someone wants to talk about finding it hard, that can provide encouragement to others struggling that they’re not alone

Exactly this. Weird to think that not having a shit time and talking about it = smug.

My DD was a nightmare breastfeeding journey (not sorry, some of us aren't weird about words) - she took 14 hours to latch, I had to use nipple shields, she lost weight and I had to pump round the clock, and I had mastitis 3 times. I ended up feeding her til she was 3. I'm proud of that, if YOU find me saying I'm proud that's on you and much more to do with your guilt/complex than anything to do with me.

Feeding DS a few years later was a doddle. He latched straight away, no issues, at all. He's 4 and I'm still feeding him. I'm still proud of myself because I've done something that isn't easy, in the best interests of my children.

It's total misogynistic bullshit to expect women to quiet about what they achieve in motherhood, or with their bodies. If it makes you uncomfortable that is YOUR issue, sort it out rather than telling other women to STFU

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Well go and be proud of yourself then, why do you need to tell everyone about it unnecessarily?

You sound determined to push your breastfeeding experience on everyone & angry that some people may not want to hear it for whatever reason.

I'm all for people feeling happy with their choices etc and talking about them where appropriate, or if somebody asks. And I do think we need different support for breastfeeding in this country, but that wont be achieved through facebook posts.

But I think going on and on about it is just odd & thinly veiled self congratulation. I am allowed that opinion, believe it or not.

For the OP - stay right out of it.

As for the rest i agree completely with TheDisallusionedAnarchist's post up there.

But - everyone should bet of WBW posters' backs. It's like when prior to Mother's day you see so many SM posts saying, effectively, you're a nasty git if you post anything about the day because some people don't have mothers/have crap mothers/can't be mothers. Apparently nobody is allowed to have a little celebration of their own life anymore. Not really sure how it is in the uk but describing the midwives as Bullies for trying to encourage breastfeding sounds a bit snowflakey to me. But then I'm pretty robust so who knows?

Deffo YY to giving women more time to recover post partum. I'm not in the UK and it was around 20 years ago now but i had a mandatory stay in hospital of 5 days after 2 completely unspectacular births. It was bliss.

It’s in the interests of formula companies that women argue over infant feeding, that there’s guilt, anger and accusations.
The language is also back to front. Breast isn’t best, it’s normal. There are no “benefits” it’s just normal.

[quote Wolfgirrl]@AnneLovesGilbert

It wasn’t my experience and I think a lot of the prevailing narrative puts pregnant women off, but god forbid a woman says it wasn’t the worst thing in the world, you’re asking to get called smug.

I found breastfeeding really, really easy. Huge supply, no mastitis, didnt get so much as a moment of pain or a cracked nipple.

If somebody asked me, I would share my 'story'. Or if it was relevant to post it on here I would. But I wouldn't plaster it all over Facebook. Why? For the same reasons I wouldn't do a post about the fact my baby has always slept through the night, or about the gory details of her forceps delivery. Because it is smug and self congratulatory, and I have manners; because nobody wants to hear about my boobs or bodily functions; because it wont serve any useful purpose; because I can 'feel' proud of my breastfeeding efforts without feeling the need to inform other people; and because in the scheme of parenting, breastfeeding is the least of my 'achievements'.[/quote]
If it was straightforward and easy for you then it’s logical that you’d feel less proud or like it was a big achievement though. I’m not really a Facebook poster in general but in a conversation about breastfeeding I’d definitely describe myself as proud of still bf my 10 month old specifically because I had a really hard time with one thing and another and I consider my perseverance to be an achievement (while recognising my very good fortune in having access to support from my family and from a local lactation specialist, which is part of the NHS offer in my area, plus having money to throw at the problem to some extent). She’s combi fed now and it’s much less of an all-important issue now she’s weaned anyway, but I’m still proud of myself for getting through some, frankly, quite traumatic times to be able to enjoy an excellent breastfeeding experience further down the line, and while I’m personally not going to post it on Facebook, anyone who said I was smug for that or should shut up about it would be speaking to their own character rather than mine.

@GlummyMcGlummerson you should absolutely be proud of that! And I don't think sharing that on a thread about WBW is unnecessary.

So many new mums switch to FF when faced with those kind of challenges because they don't have the knowledge or support they need. You hear so often 'i couldn't breastfeed because...' when actually the 'because' is just that they had the wrong info/support or just didn't want to as very few women genuinely can't breastfeed.

I think sharing experiences is really helpful, if even one woman sees someone else's story and takes something from it then great!

I refuse to minimise or hide my bfing success, and it's a huge success, I'm very proud after doing 2 months with dc1 I'm on 8 months and still going with dc2. Why shouldn't it be acknowledged?

I endure running, CrossFit, cycling, #makingmemories, fucking banana bread and lord knows how many other topics people post that have no relevance to me without being offended.

I'm not saying you shouldn't feel proud. I just think it is an odd topic to boast about on Facebook. It is your right to post it, but it is my right not to have to 'like' it or consider it an achievement. That's all I'm saying.

its funny i made a thread about my experiences, i didn't produce enough and my second ds didn't latch on at all. my DM & Aunt have always made comments about am i sure i was doing it right .