To ask your opinion on this #WorldBreastfeedingWeek debate

[Napqueen1234]

Sorry if this sounds childish referred to social media etc but interested to canvas opinions.

A friend of mine shared a post on Instagram re world breastfeeding week about how it’s the best thing for baby and mum, so proud she could do it, perseverance etc. She’s a very zealous breastfeeder generally (and why not!) and was a good person to go to for advice when I was struggling although did say she was ‘disappointed I had given in’ after 2 months. Anyway!

Another friend then shared a post about Fed Is Best (she struggled bf and switched to formula and has always found it difficult seeing bf women, a lot of guilt and sadness that I feel she needs to process somehow) and how WBW is just another stick to beat ‘failed breast feeders’ with and anyone who wants to breastfeed gets loads of support from midwives etc and generally society nowadays so it isn’t needed.

Both have since messaged me about the other stating they are upset (we are a close group of 4, the other doesn’t have DC so I suppose I’m mediator). Friend one feels like this is one week where BF should be celebrated and acknowledged is better. Friend two feels mother’s should be more understanding to the feelings of those that couldn’t breastfeed and not ‘brag’.

I have remained fairly moderate and tried to calm things but who do you think is right?

YABU- it’s world breastfeeding week! It’s best let them have their moment.

YANBU- it can make women feel very sad who didn’t bf or who ‘failed’ so social media posts should be mindful of this.

I believe breast is best, when it is best, otherwise it isn't. Having two kids that just didn't gain weight and ended up bottle feeding and one who was breastfed I can see it from both sides. Breastfeeding is great when it works, but can be devastating when it doesn't work.

As to your question OP I voted YABU, let them have their moment. I think your ff friend is being too sensitive. I ff and I've noticed that some people who bf seem to criticise out of annoyance that they've done all this hard work and you haven't. They want to feel their sacrifice was worth it. In this case the best thing to do is to act like I'm sad that I didn't bf for long, I'm so impressed by them, ff is such a hassle etc. Secretly I don't think any of that!

So sick and tired of people who feel they've failed/chosen not to breast feed acting like people who choose to/ can breastfeed are being mean if they celebrate that.

It is biologically normal to breast feed your child ffs. If you can't then by formula or use donated milk but don't expect people not to celebrate successfully getting the job done - any other win would be celebrated. Not everyone can do everything doesn't mean people can't enjoy their own perceived success.

@RaisinGhost

Wolfgirrrl But going on about what hard work it is, and all the obstacles you had to overcome etc is surely going to put people off and make things worse?

This is so true. So far today, on this thread alone, we've learned that bf is relentless, painful and tiring, and impossible unless you have a "team of slaves". Sounds great, where do I sign!

But surely its better to have an acurate picture so you know what to expect and can prepare and set your expectations at a realistic level? We get fed a narrative that bf is natural and therefore should be effortless and this is simply wrong for most people.

Babies need to learn how to latch. You need to find the best position to feed in. The first 1-2 months are knackering. Your nipples will be sore at first. All this is normal. We get fed the line 'breast feeding should never be painful' which i think is detrimental to bf rates as people take the fact they are uncomfortable and tired beyond all reason as a sign they are doing something wrong or can't bf, but in fact it's normal (I'm not talking about cracked / bleeding nipples here, those do need to be sorted out, just that it is a painful experience at first. I also happen to think the tiredness issue is a legitimate reason for giving up and its so detrimental to mental health and just unworkable sometimes if you have other commitments).

The fact it is physically draining is part of the reason I don't think people are unreasonable for feeling its an achievement. The lines 'its a natural bodily function, women have always bf you don't see women in the 3rd world making a fuss' ( as seen in this thread) is used as an excuse to take that feeling of achievment away from them.

@Kaiserin you are absolutely on the money. I am a 'failed' breastfeeder despite all the will in the world and throwing a fair amount of money at the problem. I know bf is best nutritionally and was adamant i would do it but the lack of ongoing physical/ mechanical support for both me and my tongue tied baby was a huge problem, let alone mh support.

Everyone in my baby group intended to bf but few managed without adding some formula and only abt half are bf into the second month pp. No wonder bf rates are so low when so many of those who do actually want to bf cannot.

I have no issue with a week to celebrate bf despite my own personal sadness but I do think there is little recognition amongst hcp and some women that formula feeding for some of us is what happens when bf doesn't work out and not because women proactively chose to not bf and were ignorant of the benefits.

I’d also stay neutral, OP. I think both of your friends are a bit odd for carrying on in a public forum.

I breastfed for three years. I feel lucky to have been able to, but don’t feel the need to be celebrated. I have many, many friends who tried so hard to breastfeed and couldn’t. Not one of them had a go at me for breastfeeding. However, one breastfeeding friend was vicious in her attacks on “lazy, selfish” women who “poison” their kids with formula. We don’t talk anymore.

Breastfeeding is such an emotionally charged issue, so it’s so very sad women feel the need to use it as a stick with which to bash other women, whatever direction it goes.

I do think having a breastfeeding week is a good idea though. Haven’t RTFT but I’m sure your formula feeding friend doesn’t really disagree with the awareness week, but rather your other friend’s need for public validation for BF.

don't expect people not to celebrate successfully getting the job done - any other win would be celebrated

This is such a bizarre way to look at it. In what world is feeding your baby a 'win'? Your baby will die if you don't feed it. It is a basic requirement. Have we really become so self-obsessed and attention-crazed that we expect other people to 'celebrate' us feeding our own babies? Good grief.

People commenting that breastfeeding needs to be normalised and that some people who have babies appear somehow completely unaware that breastfeeding is a thing - I call bullshit. You get the odd woman going to the red-tops about being 'shamed' for breastfeeding in Asda or whatever, but it's actually not that common. Things have got better and better now and I never had a single person make any kind of comment to me when I was feeding my baby. Because it's unusual for anybody else, let alone strangers, to actually give a shit.
When does this self-congratulatory nonsense end? Will they still get likes when they post pictures of every home-made, organic fruit and veg puree their baby eats? All the organic meals they eat as 5 year olds? Or does that suddenly become tedious and smug?

Stay neutral if you can but some of the breast is best messaging can be judgey and quite nasty so depends if you’d friend was simply in the celebrate camp or was in the ‘breastfed babies are more loved blah blah’ camp.

I’d also add that some people rant on as if formula is poison and are a bit evangelical about exclusive breast feeding . I know many more women who combi fed (especially second or subsequent) babies. There is also not enough support re expressing

[quote Ohtherewearethen]@upsidedownwavylegs - how obnoxious you sound.
I really, really do not understand the interest other people have in whether a mother breast feeds or formula feeds her baby. And the competitive smugness it seems to generate from some women. A mother's job is to feed her baby. Why on earth does this suddenly require a huge fanfare and pat on the back? It's boring, mundane, tedious, often stressful, sometimes painful but necessary, and despite what some posters seem to believe, a fed baby is best. Whether that be from breast or bottle.
@Kaiserin - requiring or expecting a team of 'slaves' to support or look after you so you can breastfeed is unrealistic, precious and absurd. In the real world, women all around the globe quietly get on with feeding their babies without needing a big fuss, posting endless selfies of themselves 'boobing' in different places or needing a team of people around them so they can 'self sacrifice' to feed their babies. It is literally nobody else's business and no mother should be made to feel like she has failed or could/should have tried harder or should have stopped breastfeeding sooner or introduced mixed feeding, etc. Just get on with it.[/quote]
Why do I sound obnoxious - because I said fed isn’t best? ‘Fed’ isn’t the issue - no participant in the conversation genuinely thinks we’re talking about whether the baby gets fed or not fed, so why pretend they do? The conversation is about what they’re fed and how, and I find it weird and, as I say, pretty misogynistic that women are expected to not mention that one option is best for the baby for fear of upsetting other people.

And what’s with all this ‘women around the globe’/women in the ‘third world’ (yikes) get on with breastfeeding without talking about it stuff? Condescending and racist.

One of the reasons that bf rates in the U.K. are so low is because our culture does not support it. Women often have to return to demanding jobs within months, fathers rarely take more than two weeks off (if that) and we live such insular lives away from extended family and the ‘village’ support that is a feature of high bf cultures.

And I say this as someone who chose to FF, partially for the above reasons.

@Kaiserin

I'd say YANBU because the current breastfeeding dogma is massively counterproductive: it creates undue pressure, guilt, unrealistic expectations, ... which all contribute to low breastfeeding rates in the long run, and poorly fed babies in the short run (when new mums desperately try, struggle, get excessively stressed, blame themselves, keep trying... and make themselves and their babies sick as a result)

Facts: (didn't check recently, but fairly sure that hasn't changed)

1. most women in the UK plan to breastfeed from day one
2. by 3 months, most babies in the UK are no longer significantly breastfed

No amount of chanting "breast is best" will change this. This approach is not working.
If people were serious about encouraging breastfeeding, they would try to identify the systemic obstacles which prevent it. I'd bet it starts in the postnatal wards from hell. And is made worse by the pathetically low numbers of fathers who take more than 2 weeks of parental leave. And the fact their extended family now often lives far away.

The bottom line is that breastfeeding women are absolutely not physically supported. Then don't need leaflets or slogans. They need expert practical advice, and rest, and plenty of food, so that they can be in top shape, establish feeding early, and sustain it. In practice they need "slaves" (kind relatives) around the house to look after them, and handle all the chores, and keep an eye on the baby while they get some sleep...
Some lucky superladies may manage without all this, but for most... This is why breastfeeding fails. Not enough genuine support that matters.
THIS is what people should be talking about during breastfeeding week (that, and mastitis, and scabbed nipples... and nipples shields, and breast pumps... and tongue tie, and how to tell from the colour of your newborn's poo whether they're getting adequate nutrition or not... and whether you should even bother with breastfeeding bras and breast pads, or just wear baggy t-shirts and change them every few hours, etc., etc.)

THIS!!!! ^

And what’s with all this ‘women around the globe’/women in the ‘third world’ (yikes) get on with breastfeeding without talking about it stuff? Condescending and racist.

Umm, do you know what misogynistic, condescending and racist mean?

WBW isn’t just for women who succeeded at breastfeeding any more than it is just for those who choose to feed until natural term weaning. It is for every woman who has ever wanted to breastfeed, tried to breastfeed or struggled to breastfeed too. There is a horrible lack of support available for breastfeeding women and sadly more often than not it is the system that fails them rather than them failing at breastfeeding. Saying you’re proud of being able to breastfeed and that breast is best is NOT shaming those who formula feed, it’s facts. Breastfeeding can be really hard and tiring and complex for a lot of women and babies, being proud of being able to do it does not take away from the struggles that others have had, and you should not have to pretend that you’re not proud just to save someone else’s feelings. Saying breast is best is just a fact. It is, but that does not necessarily mean that it will be best for every single mother and baby dyad. There are so many reasons why breastfeeding might not be best and that leads to other choices- pumping, donor milk, formula top ups or exclusive formula feeding.

@Ohtherewearethen

And what’s with all this ‘women around the globe’/women in the ‘third world’ (yikes) get on with breastfeeding without talking about it stuff? Condescending and racist.

Umm, do you know what misogynistic, condescending and racist mean?

Yes

Not every celebrations includes everybody. Why should it?

@upsidedownwavylegs - it is frequently said that the UK has some of the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world. So please explain how saying that women around the world breastfeed their babies is racist? Or condescending? Or misogynistic? You say you know what these words mean but it really doesn't come across that way.

In a way though if a lot of people are arguing it’s women’s choice, breast is best but formula is fine and we should all butt out of other people’s choices why does it even matter if the majority FF? As long as those who wish to BF are not judged and supported physically mentally and emotionally by the correct professionals and family/friends surely if because of various reasons mentioned (useless paternity leave, often short mat leave etc) if lots of people FF it isn’t the end of the world? Other developed countries have v high FF numbers and don’t worry about them as much.

[quote Ohtherewearethen]@upsidedownwavylegs - it is frequently said that the UK has some of the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world. So please explain how saying that women around the world breastfeed their babies is racist? Or condescending? Or misogynistic? You say you know what these words mean but it really doesn't come across that way.[/quote]
I didn’t say that, seems your comprehension is lacking rather than mine. I said the view that all these women ‘around the globe’ and ‘in the third world’ (if you don’t know why that phrase is condescending and racist you’ve got bigger problems) feed their babies without talking about it/‘making a fuss’ is racist. First of all it’s not even true and second of all it completely others non-British and particularly non-white women and erases the challenges they face in breastfeeding that are common to all women. Pretty sure women in the “third world” have the same skin on their nipples as British women do, and their babies have similarly sharp teeth, and they get just as knackered when the baby’s having a growth spurt and needs to cluster feed. Why would here be the only place where women talk about these issues?

And I said expecting women to be quiet on issues that affect them for fear of upsetting others is misogynistic, which I stand by.

It's a great idea to celebrate breastfeeding. It's not something that should be avoided because some FF mothers are carrying around unnecessary guilt.

Breastfeeding is a tough commitment especially in modern life and if it stimulates uptake in BF rates then great.

Women still have the choice of how to feed after viewing a post on facebook.

I never use the term 'third world' and neither do I use the term 'first world problems'. You're confusing me with someone else. I strongly disagree that the term I used, 'women around the globe' is racist or condescending. I haven't once suggested that women from all cultures and countries (by the way, your reference to 'non-British' and 'non-white' women is more 'othering' and racist as it suggests white British is a default in your mind) have exactly the same and presumably some additional/different struggles and issues with breastfeeding. Many just don't feel that they need to post selfies of themselves 'boobing' at the bank or in the swimming pool. They don't expect a self-congratulatory high five from other breast feeding mummies who seem to think they invented breastfeeding and are the first women in the world to do it right. They just get on with it because that's what mums do - they feed their babies in the way they feel is best. They don't need validation or celebrating because it's just an expectation. It's one of many of a mum's jobs. And it's literally nobody else's business.

@Ohtherewearethen

I never use the term 'third world' and neither do I use the term 'first world problems'. You're confusing me with someone else. I strongly disagree that the term I used, 'women around the globe' is racist or condescending. I haven't once suggested that women from all cultures and countries (by the way, your reference to 'non-British' and 'non-white' women is more 'othering' and racist as it suggests white British is a default in your mind) have exactly the same and presumably some additional/different struggles and issues with breastfeeding. Many just don't feel that they need to post selfies of themselves 'boobing' at the bank or in the swimming pool. They don't expect a self-congratulatory high five from other breast feeding mummies who seem to think they invented breastfeeding and are the first women in the world to do it right. They just get on with it because that's what mums do - they feed their babies in the way they feel is best. They don't need validation or celebrating because it's just an expectation. It's one of many of a mum's jobs. And it's literally nobody else's business.

I didn’t say you said it, I said “all these references”. You know, because this is a thread on a chat forum. For some reason you singled me out as ‘sounding obnoxious’ even though I said a variation on what loads of other posters have said, apparently because ‘fed is not best’ struck a nerve, and now you seem to think I’ve made it a personal exchange and you’re once again being disingenuous with the ‘white British is default in your mind’ comment. If you or anyone else couldn’t breastfeed then that’s not your/their fault but neither is it women who could breastfeed’s fault and you sound pretty obnoxious yourself with all the “self congratulatory” and “seem to think they invented breastfeeding”. If you’re as disinterested in the subject as you claim to be why not leave off it and allow the many women that are interested to have the discussion between themselves?

As I said - women should be allowed to talk about the advantages and challenges of breastfeeding (and the relative benefits of breastfeeding over formula feeding) without first centring other people’s feelings.

@upsidedownwavylegs - I could and did breastfeed thanks. I just wasn't a knob about it.

and you’re once again being disingenuous with the ‘white British is default in your mind’ comment - oh, you weren't being racist, I was being disingenuous (which means being insincere by pretending to know less about something than one actually does). My apologies for your lack of awareness.

@Ohtherewearethen

and you’re once again being disingenuous with the ‘white British is default in your mind’ comment - oh, you weren't being racist, I was being disingenuous (which means being insincere by pretending to know less about something than one actually does). My apologies for your lack of awareness.

Yes, precisely. No need to apologise, you’re quite right that I wasn’t being racist and you were being disingenuous, and that that is the definition of disingenuous. A bit like saying ‘fed is best’