For not wanting to see this child ever again?

[justchecking80]

Today son (6yo) and I met acquaintance mum and her child (4yo) for lunch and play in the park. We are both in a larger group due to go on holiday with kids later in August and mum approached me asking for a playdate so the kids "can get to know each other".
This child is "difficult" and prone to aggressive behaviour and tantrums. We've been out with them a couple of time and child has been very physical, in one instance even wrapping his arm around my son's neck.

Anyway, we met for lunch and things went ok, although towards the end child decided he wanted to lay down on his and son's chair so my son had to stand up while his mum was finishing her meal. Also, at one point the child started screaming extremely loudly with people staring at us.
We then went to the park where child has been:

• throwing sand on my son, aiming to his face
• being disobedient and totally disregarding what his mum was asking him to do/not to do
• invited my son to a race with their scooters, resulting in me and mum losing sight of them for a good 10 minutes, I've never once lost my son before. During this time my son got slightly injured falling from the swing while child was pushing.
• throwing gravel stones at me and my son, and carrying on after his mum asked him to stop
• at the end of the playdate, we were due to leave and by now I was looking forward to it to catch the train home and after I asked the child to return my son's scooter because we needed to run for the train he decided to run away with it while his mum chasing him for a good 10 minute, resulting in us actually missing the train
• when we finally got hold of them (mum was still trying to take the scooter out of child' hands) I told the child he was being naughty and he replied I am a stinky poop
• we then left mum and child behind to try to get the train child was having a meltdown anyway but after realising that was too late we slowed down our pace, resulting in mum and child catching up with us and having to walk together while child kept calling me stinky poop for several times ignoring him mum's plea to stop.

AIBU for not wanting to meet this child ever again and now dreading to have to spend a week with them in August?

A play date is supposed to be fun for the kids and a time for adults to chats... it another child was preventing either of these happening I wouldn’t bother arranging a play date with that family... unless it was a relative or close friend. I’m tired from parenting my own children I don’t want to do the same to other kids.

Weird how every MN thread diagnoses it assumes SEN for ‘unbehaved’ kids.. it’s an insult to this with SEN.

I’ve taught many/ know many kids with autism who are impeccably well mannered and well behaved... in fact lots of them stick to all the rules as part of their autism trait.

So every time a kid is badly behaved doesn’t mean they have SEN/autism!!!!!!!!!

@OverTheRainbow88

A play date is supposed to be fun for the kids and a time for adults to chats... it another child was preventing either of these happening I wouldn’t bother arranging a play date with that family... unless it was a relative or close friend. I’m tired from parenting my own children I don’t want to do the same to other kids.

Weird how every MN thread diagnoses it assumes SEN for ‘unbehaved’ kids.. it’s an insult to this with SEN.

I’ve taught many/ know many kids with autism who are impeccably well mannered and well behaved... in fact lots of them stick to all the rules as part of their autism trait.

So every time a kid is badly behaved doesn’t mean they have SEN/autism!!!!!!!!!

I agree. Well behaved SEND kids and poorly behaved non-SEN kids seem not to exist is some people’s minds.

Over, totally agree with that.
Op we had some play dates with similar child although this one seemed to want t cause pain, hit dc sneeky when parents not watching.
After a few I noticed the mum very meekly and calmly would ask the dc like an adult, what happened. When he said.... And made up excuses, hit head on door and mum said nothing, I had to stop it..
It was too stressful having to not only watch my dc to keep them from harm but even more stressful with the mum doing nothing.

My own dc would have been made to apologies and made to leave if repeated.

Having said that I do feel for the poor mum.
I do feel if dp disclose their child's sen people are far more understanding. If mine did I would explain this and also why stern telling off or consequences might not work, or what consequences would be coming.
I'm not sure saying nothing however helps.

It's SN not SEN.

It's also insulting to children with autism who struggle to cope with situations and manage their own behaviour to say it is bad behaviour and insulting to their parents to say it is parenting.
My autistic nephew is very into rules so much so that he polices everyone else's behaviour which leads to altercations and the appearance of rudeness. Believing in rules creates it's own problems.

When my son was four, an educational psychologist explained to me the theory that children often will conform by sitting cross-legged on the carpet at story-time because all the other children are doing so, and they want to fit in. She said educationalist rely on this instinct in order to be able to teach and manage large groups. When I attended sessions for parents of children with autism, we viewed a video of small children, aged between one and two, looking to make eye contact with their parents to see whether their parents are approving and finding their behaviour safe. Apparently, children with ASD do this watching and imitating far less frequently. My son, when four, would just run off, even on the beach, he would walk determinedly back to the car where he wanted to play with the steering wheel. I could not understand why other toddlers and three year olds were not doubt the we and why they were happy to play in the vicinity of their families on a crowded beach. Later, when my son was eleven and we attended CAMHS sessions, the therapist explained that he would like too hoover up coins too, because of the lovely noise it makes, and would probably do it if he could get away with it. I think there's a theory that most children don't behave acceptably only because they care about the feelings of others but rather because their normally-developing social awareness conditions them to conform. I think that it probably takes a long time for all children to learn consideration and empathy but it's harder for those with social impairments. I think parents of children with autism co-existing with challenging behaviour just need to be on the ball and vigilant to supervise play, bring extra supplies of cheap toys so that sharing is easier and doesn't cause rows, and to make sure others are not getting hurt. None of us know whether the child OP posts about has ASD, but such full-on challenging behaviour does suggest this is likely. He isn't trying to hide his behaviour to avoid getting into trouble, he is doing what he feels the urge to do. The important thing is for all parents going on this holiday to be aware of the extra need to help supervise their kids' collective play, as there may be more hazards in an unfamiliar place. I know it isn't strictly speaking the responsibility of the others but it does as though the mum of this boisterous little boy hasn't quite yet scoped at the parameters of the issue and what she needs to do to keep everyone safe from harm.

@Spikeyball

It's also insulting to children with autism who struggle to cope with situations and manage their own behaviour to say it is bad behaviour

I totally agree with as well

But I stick by my point that just because a child displays ‘challenging’ behaviour doesn’t mean they have autism.

The term challenging behaviour was originally used to refer to behaviours that are as a result of additional needs - behaviours that are a particular challenge for those working with the child to resolve as they are not standard undesirable behaviours. It does now appear to have widespread usage for any undesirable behaviour.

I thought it was a less loaded term for difficult to manage behaviours.

It is. The challenge being on those working with the child.

Not as a form of judgement on the child as I have seen it used on here.

I don't think anyone has said that every child with challenging behaviour has autism. Or that children with SEN don't know right from wrong. However, as impulse control can be impacted by difficulties such as ASD/ADHD, some children with these issues will struggle to behave in a socially acceptable way even though they know and understand what the rules are.

Surely the point is more that when the child is 4 no one can know that ASD/ADHD are not on the cards. They don't even really want to assess for ADHD at that age as the child may still mature out of difficult behaviour- 4 year olds can just be hard work while they learn boundaries. As an acquaintance rather than a friend the mother may not be comfortable discussing any issues in depth with OP either. A little bit of understanding and kindness for other parents is never remiss.

I probably look like a weak and ineffectual parent much of the time, but I am just trying to make our home life a little more bearable by picking my battles and prioritising safety. At our first meeting the Ed Psych Consultant suggested lowering our expectations of behaviour to be realistic, even with no diagnosis on the horizon. But, as this thread confirms, there are limits to how much you can do that and I feel we're already at that limit. It's an impossible balance. I laugh off the exuberant behaviour in public but I am exhausted by never being able to turn my back or relax when I have DC with me.

Difficult children are a real thing- it's not always down to the parenting. And unless you are there, watching 24/7, absolutely no one on this thread is in a position to judge.

OP needs to make sure her 6 year old is not so easily led by a younger child. Their behaviour wasn't good but sending that text was unkind- it would have been better to have managed to holiday carefully when they got there- it's easy enough to go on day trips/day no to being left with a child because of X-Y-Z reason, and then just quietly avoided them afterwards. There are ways around the issue which are much more empathetic than OP's reaction here.

Fuck me, what a nasty text message to have sent to a mother who may be really struggling.

I wouldn't want your child hanging out with mine if you bring that much judgement to the party.

Take responsibility for your own child running off. Teach them some assertiveness. Humans copy other humans. That's human behaviour. Welcome to the world.

Aren't we allowed to call children 'naughty' nowadays.

And don't give me this SEN/ADHD/ASD stuff, I worked at a school and these kids can behave if they want to, it's all an excuse

Luckily I know that you weren't involved in looking after my kids (both with ASD/ADHD) because I like to think that level of ignorance would have shown (and I'd have been straight to the headmaster if you'd said anything like that to me, to get you taken a long way away from any SEN kids).

Some children are just badly behaved. Some adults are obnoxious arses.
Not every instance of non ideal behaviour suggests some sort of syndrome or special need.

@eddiemairswife

Yup my boys can be naughty as hell and they know it!!!

My ASD/ADHD child on a general basis is actually impeccably behaved. Yet as soon as she starts to become overwhelmed her behaviour absolutely nosedive and she appears absolutely feral. Once I understood her needs and it all made perfect sense lofe got much easier.

My NT DS is absolutely a boundary pusher and a little sod at times.

see all those jumping on the ASD queries! Not all ASD children act like naughty just as not all naughty kids have ASD! This is CLEARLY complete lack of parenting and I hate that much of failed parenting is blamed on ASD! There is a generation of entitled little s**ts being raised because of blatant lazy parenting and parents wanting to be best mates with their kids! I would distance myself from them and if you do go on holiday ensure you are keeping your child safe from this little terror as that is YOUR job has a parent know you know what mum/child are like

Don’t understand why you ever agreed to holiday with them anyway knowing what he is like

Sounds as though the child has some undiagnosed SEN (ASD or ADHD - possibly both) and the mother is burying her head in the sand.

@OverTheRainbow88

A play date is supposed to be fun for the kids and a time for adults to chats... it another child was preventing either of these happening I wouldn’t bother arranging a play date with that family... unless it was a relative or close friend. I’m tired from parenting my own children I don’t want to do the same to other kids.

Weird how every MN thread diagnoses it assumes SEN for ‘unbehaved’ kids.. it’s an insult to this with SEN.

I’ve taught many/ know many kids with autism who are impeccably well mannered and well behaved... in fact lots of them stick to all the rules as part of their autism trait.

So every time a kid is badly behaved doesn’t mean they have SEN/autism!!!!!!!!!

But those are children who have been diagnosed and are receiving support, when SEN children are undiagnosed and not receiving the correct support it can easily manifest into behavioral issues.

SN or not, it is not acceptable for children to be hurt by their playmates. Whoever is doing it, needs to be stopped. How they are stopped may have a different approach, but @justchecking80 hasn't expanded on how much the mum guided her DC when he was making the wrong choices.

So when OPs DC was forced to stand whilst the other child laid across both seats and the other mum keep eating, that wasn't OK - it should've been dealt with by the other mum. The sand and gravel throwing should've been dealt with too, by whoever's child was throwing. Both DC racing off should've also been dealt with by both parents.

Parents are responsible for their own children, and their behaviour, whether SN or not.

You're going to be dreading going away with them by the sounds of it. Perhaps you should try & find an excuse to not go.

I don't think it was bad of the OP to send the text afterwards. Sometimes you just have to be honest and straight down the line. It isn't the OP's fault that this mother may be struggling and funding things hard. I've been the mum struggling AND the mum in the OP's position, who I think has done the right thing.