To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler. I think I see what you are saying. I don’t think we can judge toddlers by their behaviour and condemn their futures. However, I have a child that stood out as a toddler. She didn’t run around crazy but she was hard to keep happy shall we say. For years my dh and I were stressed and wondered how others had it so easy. For what it’s worth, I suspect she is on the Spectrum. When she started nursery and I saw her in a different way as we finally had some time apart, I said to my mum “dd is like a colour cartoon on a black and white tv” and it describes her beautifully. She lights up a room and has always been loved by the staff in nursery and school. I admit I found other kids a bit dull and drab in comparison and realised after all of the wishing for an easier baby/toddler that I was immensely proud of her for being different. She almost killed me lol demented doesn’t cover it! But she is the light of my life. We waited a long time to have DS as we were just knackered. He is just as yummy but more like those kids you mention. Sit nicely in a buggy. Eat the food you give him. Behave well for strangers and adults. He’s only 1 but already the differences are huge to when dd was wee.

Anyway, I would say with your wee boy make sure you have rules and stick to them as he gets older he needs to know boundaries. BUT Try and see his good qualities and encourage those too. I bet once he’s at nursery you realise you miss your little spark and feel proud that he doesn’t quite fit that mould

I think that, overall, the annoying traits of some children are not dealt with by parents early enough. Once a child gets to screaming for what they want, not being able to play cooperatively or unable to sit for 5 mins or listen to anything, school will be difficult. So continual reminders about behaviour are required. So many children are not told “no” when something they are doing isn’t appropriate, it does sometimes feel that some children are indulged too much!

My DDs, in their 20s now, have strong personalities. One in particular was very contrary at times but could be reasoned with. She had friends and didn’t annoy anyone. It helped that she was articulate and loved school. She was always described by teachers as enthusiastic. I think this is perhaps what to aim for. Never afraid to articulate a reasoned argument but lively and interested in everything as well.

I think parents have to guide DC into acceptable behaviour and not encourage poor behaviour because it seems funny. Boys seem to be indulged in silly behaviour.

I truly feel no parent thinks their child is full and drab. The overbearing ones do stick out but not always in a good way! My DD1 was “colourful” but that personality was channeled into learning and now her job.

I think there are things as parents we just have firm lines on. For example rudeness and bad manners were always absolute no no’s. Whatever their personality. But a lot of these firm parenting rules don’t really take effect until they are about 3 in my opinion. Your 2 year old will have what appears to be a hormonal meltdown over the wrong socks or the bread being too crumby. You can’t reason with that and in my experience it’s about seeing the difference between these incidents and those which require guidance.

Dd has a peer (not friend anymore) who still has tantrums if not given her way. We call her Verruca Salt. Dh told her no to a demand and she kicked off. NT age 11. Never inviting her again! Her parents always give in. Dh hadn’t got the memo!

I have 2 girls. One was boisterous, cheeky and constantly pushing boundaries. It was like raking a drunken chimp out for dinner/ to the supermarket. Plenty of looks from strangers, words from nursery manager about behaviour. She couldnt regulate herself at that point in time. She has taken longer to mature than her peers but she is now 5 and although can still have her moments is much calmer and teachers have praised her behaviour as impeccable ( something I never ever thought I would hear from the toddler days) tbh we stuck to soft play, outdoors, playgrounds and didn't venture to places she had to be still as it was torture.

2nd girl is a different character. Calmer, more social, smiles and waves at strangers. She fits the 'sweet little girl' box that many seem to prefer. We (particularly DH by himself) have had so many comments about our parenting skills with her - that we are obviously 'getting things right' because she is so well behaved. I would have been so smug if she was our only child.

They have been brought up with the same boundaries and discipline, but it's their personalities that are different.

I think personality and genetics plays a much bigger part in How children turn out than people realise. Yes discipline is important but it's not going to completely tame your wild child!

You might be setting him up for lack of confidence in other ways because if his behaviour bothers other people and he doesn’t have a clear sense of boundaries he will alienate others and be left wondering why. Knowing how to interact with others considerately will smooth his path through life. Confidence comes from knowing what you are doing, however if you are at odds with the people around you you will soon be wrong-footed.

If he is brought up to feel most at home and most like ‘himself’ when he is domineering and disruptive, this will leave him with real difficulties getting on with others. Real confidence is about not feeling threatened by rules and boundaries but understanding how to assert yourself without being disrespectful or inconsiderate towards anyone else.

In threads such as these, you'll find hoards of parents lining up to give themselves a congratulatory pay on the back for raising such well-behaved children through their stellar parenting. In reality, no matter what type of parent you are, children develop their own personalities. It's the luck of the draw whatever type of child you end up with.

I myself was the very well-behaved, quiet, high achieving student at school. It had absolutely nothing to do with my parents influence. And they'll be the first ones to admit it.

I totally agree that confidence leads to a child often doing well in life but that’s not the same as being a pain in the backside that’s mistaken for confidence. Confident children are also ones which absorb everything around them and are able articulate their feelings and thoughts. I don’t see confidence as not being self aware.

My DD is an absolute dream child. I literally can take her anywhere & am always praised on how well behaved, polite and friendly she is. I think it is partly luck/personality but I also think its because I wouldn't allow her to purposely misbehave. I don't shout at her - I honestly don't need to. However I do worry about some of the things you have mentioned i.e. difficulty making friends. She is very sociable & popular but as she is quite laid back she will give up her games/toys etc to her friends and I worry she will be pushed around when older. This is something I am trying to work on with her. On top of that she is a perfectionist & hard on herself if her work isn't up to scratch at school which again is something I'm working on but I do wonder if I have caused these issues in her or whether that's just her personality. As I say she is an absolute dream - I trust her implicitly not to do anything she shouldn't but I do wonder if sometimes I've been too hard on her when I see other children. I think parents always feel guilty about something. She is also funny, clever, kind and beautiful! And we have an incredible bond so I'm not doing all bad!

I disagree. Nurturing obviously has some effect. If it didn’t, why bother? Nature clearly has a big influence but the rough edges are certainly smoothed by nurture and guidance.

But is there any way I can turn him into the child that is happy to walk quietly beside you or stays in their buggy? The one that never has tantrums, will sit quietly at cafes for long periods and doesn't run off to explore? That child seems a much easier one to parent.

Well my opinion is no, not at 2-3 years old. Dd is 6 and will now sit beautifully at a restaurant. I swear I thought the day would never come. She was about 4 when I was able to start doing these things.

We didn’t expect them to sit in a cafe for a long time at 2. At 3 they did. Try doing the running around before you go out. You just have to keep explaining over safety and walking. Or resort to reins. Ignore tantrums.

I think language acquisition gets dc over these hurdles. When they can articulate what they want it’s easier for them. And you. Discussion about running off sinks in eventually. A bit of bribery re sitting in the buggy might work too. Treat at the end of the trip. What is his language like?

Agree with Sassenach85. If they can do it at 2/3, it's a lot to do with their personality. Most toddlers are inquisitive and curious by nature. If you expect them to behave like that all the time at that age, then you are doing the same as your parents. It's all about balance, as some pp said.

If you expect them to behave like that all the time at that age, then you are doing the same as your parents.

I don't expect him to behave like this, but it would make my life so much easier and I'd been viewed as a 'good' parent.

Well one - you need to care less how other people view your parenting (people will always have an opinion and you will never please them, why would you want to?)

Two - if it’s too easy you’re not learning. My friend had an easy first child and spirited second. She admits she was smug and thought she had nailed it when actually she learnt so much from from her second dd.

I know how you feel it’s hard when you are frazzled and others are sailing on. But things aren’t always what they seem.

Sorry OP, I have come to this post very late, so have not seen many of the other's posts, but I have read all of yours, which show that you have had a very mixed bag of responses (no surprise there of course). Here is my twopenny worth!
OMG OP, why are you posting here? You are coming across as an amazing Mum, who has her head both screwed on very tightly, and in just the right way. But I am heartbroken for you, not because of your little boy, he sounds delightful, and your descriptions of him make me grin, and even laugh. I have 3 adult boys, and you have brought back so many lovely memories. My sadness is for you and your childhood, I have a few good memories from my childhood (my parents were good people, my mum was the best, but my dad's moods ruined many of what should have been happy events - he only hit me once, when I was 14 he slapped me around the face, I think I had been unusually cheeky to him), that you also cannot look back at a childhood full of joy, every child deserves a joyful childhood.
I do not, and cannot, believe that any child who lives with joy can grow up to be anything but a kind and loving person. Luckily, many children who don't have a particularly happy childhood, still manage to become lovely well adjusted adults, but how much better is it to be able to look back on that childhood with many happy memories. I am reasonably sure that my Dad had some well hidden - from most - mental health problems, but when in company he hid them well. My Mum, was a loving, caring Mum (although I do not remember her being particularly demonstrative with lots of hugs and I love you's), who should have left my Dad when I was a child, not in my 20's, but I guess she was scared of bringing up 2 children on her own. I wonder why as an adult I never asked her. Anyway, this is not supposed to be about me, but I wanted you to know that I think I understand where you are coming from, and I had many of the same feelings as you about child rearing, when mine were young. I couldn't give my children the childhood I wanted to, mainly due to my own insecurities, very sadly I don't think any of them look back on a happy childhood either. It was very different issues that affected them, I know they have always known how very loved they are by me, but their Dad walked out when the youngest was a new born, however he did continue to see them very regularly, and pay child maintenance for them. I tried not to slag him off to them, or anyone really, my psychiatrist told me I had to hate him, but I couldn't, I loved him enough to want him to be happy (he openly left me for a slightly younger woman, I was very young when we married), I think he left because on one side I was too emotional for him, and on the other not academically (or even culturally) educated enough for him. He is extremely academically intelligent, but not so good on emotional feelings, or have much common sense.
You on the other hand sound very in tune with your emotions, and what you want to achieve in life, well at least as far as your child (hopefully children - as you expressed the want for more children) is concerned. My feelings were, and are still, the same as the ones you have expressed here in regards to child rearing. I really cannot see anything "wrong" in the way you treat your gorgeous boy, it sounds like you have exactly the right relaxed attitude to his behaviour, whilst still punishing and rewarding him at the correct times. You won't always get it right, but it sounds like you will much more often than you get it "wrong". I believe that it is actually good not to be perfect, what child or partner could live up to the perfect parent's standard, in fact the very act of being perfect would surely make someone imperfect? I stronly believe in apologizing to anyone you have wronged, even children - maybe especially children. Your son really does sound delightful, loving and kind, learning empathy, yet with the spirit to push the boundaries. I firmly believe that between the ages of 12 months to about 18/20 years old, all children should push and question boundries, but for safety's sake always know when No really does mean No, and to stop immediately, and ask questions later. If you always explain afterwards the need for the negative reply, they should quickly learn to trust your No's, but you already know all this I am sure.
My eldest son's nursey told me he was being a bit destructive, when he was older he got a long way to becoming a policeman, but whilst training found that he couldn't take the inherent racism, and lack of general empathy for others - I am in no way saying that even most police officers are like that, just that my son could not cope with how many there were. One of my other 2 sons has a job in the care sector, and the third is currently unemployed but volunteers at a charity. By the way, although all loving and caring, in someways they have very different characters, the first was very out going, the middle about usual, and the third not so much, so any more children you have might be quite different to your ptesent little boy.
If you are still reading this book (!), you come across as very aware of what you want for your children, and I want you to stick to what knowledge and instincts you have, because to me they are spot on. My one actual suggestion is that if you are not already, you and your partner need to be as much as possible on the same page when it comes to their upbringing, my ex believed in smacking, I didn't let him, I could never have let him, even if that is why he left me - maybe he felt emasculated?
You are inspirational, but you must never be perfect!

Why viewed as good parent important?
I remember once my dc had a massive tantrum at the toddler group. I was doing my best to deal with it. All the other mums and dads there, and older ladies who run the group was really supportive and helpful. No one judged me.
Some children are hard work than other. But people don't judge the parents who are doing their best. They judge the parents who don't.

Why viewed as good parent important?

It's not really...And I know that . But having been praised for my good behaviour as a child (and had that praise be very important for my parents' sense of self-worth), it has required a bit of a cognitive leap on my part to accept this. Especially since, as shown by many of the comments here, a lot of people do think it is important and judge other parents hugely when they don't measure up to their standards.

This is such an interesting thread. I’m sorry people are so rude about your son and your parenting. I think he sounds like a normal rambunctious toddler.

I really think it’s personality as much as parenting. I was like your friends’ daughter, and would sit quietly for hours as a child, never said boo to a goose, never left my Mum’s side at toddler groups. I hated school as I had no confidence and was the quietest kid in the class. I often got sat next to the most boisterous boy ‘to be a good influence’ but I have always really liked and admired the naughty, cheeky boys (opposites attract) so it didn’t have the detrimental effect your experienced. My sister has always been less shy and more extrovert with more inherent self belief — we were raised the same and only a year apart in age, treated as twins really. Confidence can be encouraged and curtailed by parenting and boundaries. I wouldn’t contradict my parents, for example, but my sister would come to blows with my Dad. Her teenage years were difficult while mine were calm (and dull) but she was much better at sticking up for herself at work — I had a string of dreadful misogynistic bosses that I was anxious to please. I discovered my confidence as an adult but I think school would have been easier if I had realised it earlier.

I think you are doing fine as you are observing your child’s behaviour and noting when it’s positive and when it could do with improving. I don’t think that you are having ‘to parent’ more than your friend, as such, although you are rushed off your feet! But in time she will have work to do to encourage her daughter to take chances, leave her side and enjoy exploring. My son was always a proximity alarm as a young boy, like the daughter in the buggy (as I was) and I found it exhausting at playgroups as I always had to go with him to every single activity, show him how to interact and stay within a couple of metres while he explored, otherwise he would retreat to my lap or the buggy. I have spent many afternoons going round softplay with him as he just wouldn’t go without me. I understood it, as I was like that as a child, but I was wistful of the mums drinking tea and having a chat, making friends etc while their kids ran round the playgroup hall or set off independently to explore the softplay and I couldn’t have the mummy time as I was coaxing him down the slide. My daughter would go off without a backward glance — they are all different.

3yr olds are only just starting to think beyond themselves — he is very young to be deciding whether he is going to be a nightmare teenager. I think he sounds ace, and that you are a very considerate and responsible mum.

I also find your repeated focus on how other people (in general), view your parenting, quite odd. I don't think it's normal, or that 'other people' are watching and caring as much as you imagine.

People do judge parents who allow their DC to run out of control and who make no effort to supervise or remove them, yes.

Otherwise, they don't really notice, much. That is, people are all busy and self-involed and are most likely to notice things that impact upon them. So, if you leave a boisterous child unsupervised at soft play, who then hurts or scares their child, they'll notice that. They'll pay no attention to the parents of well-behaved children. They will notice, positively, the parents of boisterous children who do supervise and intervene.

Your parents got lucky and were smug about it. Silly, naive them. But remember, they were parents in an age when social values were different, children were expected to conform more, were held to higher standards of good manners and the idea of being seen and not heard was still current with some people. (And lots of DCs burnt off their energy running free outside all day - and lots more unsupervised children died in road accidents).

Toddler Taming

“But is there any way I can turn him into the child that is happy to walk quietly beside you or stays in their buggy? The one that never has tantrums, will sit quietly at cafes for long periods and doesn't run off to explore?”

Toddler Taming has some good strategies to achieve these aims, without squashing his personality.

Sorry, forgot to mention, it’s a book by Christopher Green.

“But is there any way I can turn him into the child that is happy to walk quietly beside you or stays in their buggy? The one that never has tantrums, will sit quietly at cafes for long periods and doesn't run off to explore?”

I’m very strict and I don’t expect my nearly three year old to sit quietly at cafes for ages or not run off and explore. Those strike me as unrealistic expectations for this age. So I won’t put my child in those situations, broadly. If we go somewhere with her I’ll either make it somewhere explore-able or expect that we’ll keep it short. Or if it’s somewhere like a supermarket (normal times) she’ll go in the trolley with a cracker. Cafe lunches are speedy these days . I think reasonable expectations are critical. The counterside of that is that I expect good behaviour in those situations and if I don’t get them it’s two warnings and then we’re off. I’m not looking for a medal for my parenting and there’s plenty of time for it all to go wrong, but just responding on the “hours in a cafe” point.