To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

100% agree! I could have written your post and was also exceptionally well behaved child. Honestly the anxiety and people pleasing does you no favours as a grown up.

It's both. His personality (i'm presuming no SEN, that would change matters) if he is boisterous will contribute, but how you as parents deal with his behaviour is also paramount. As long as you are making him aware when his behaviour is disruptive to others, and not left unchecked, then it's merely a case of drinking lots of gin to deal with him. :)

Mine have a balance - out for a meal or coffee it's best behaviour and table manners or they will be removed immediately. But in the woods, seaside, fields - go wild, explore, climb, build... As long as you respect nature. They have plenty of time to be free but also know the rules of being polite and kind (though it seems to go out the window with each other!). They do act up sometimes but mostly they a good free spirited kids. They've always been happy to go with the flow and follow the behaviour of who they are with so a nice quiet coffee has been a treat for me and them since babies - they would happily share a little something, have frothy milk or toddler snacks and were quiet and gentle without being asked. However when out with friends who let their kid the same age run around the coffee shop screaming and going up to people's tables and messing with their stuff (i was mortified, friend didn't care one bit) obviously mine wanted to follow her friend but I said no you don't do that in here and they were fine and just sat colouring in and chatting while the other kid was awful.

You have to set boundaries from day one. I wouldnt say mine are compliant but they know what is expected of them and since they could sit they have been an active part of table etiquette so have always been good. They know there are times to be crazy and times to be calm.

Not all kids are like that and some kids are challenging, in which case - don't put them in situations you know they can't manage or at least only do them in short burst so they can get use to them. There is a huge difference in having a well behaved kid and a kid being too damn scared to say boo to a goose.

I’m more with the OP than against. I’m quiet and reserved and was brought up not to hold opinions. I don’t want that for my DC, I can see how it’s holding me back in my career.

My own DC were on the whole quite well behaved, it’s in their natures so perhaps I’m lucky. One of them tended to follow trouble makers which was an issue for years, but at long last, now late teens, has appreciated this is not a good idea. But I have tried to get them to question and argue and debate, and to value their own opinions.

Neither would be well behaved for a long meal in a cafe or restaurant until 7 or 8. So a quick one course and buy an ice cream later on was the usual way.

At toddler groups one of mine played alone away from the others a lot, but we did persevere and he did learn to join in a bit over time. I think you do need to persevere and take action where necessary - not just stop going or he won’t have the opportunity to learn what you want him to. Stop him running about, tell him why, if he repeats, take him home and tell him what he did wrong and what he could try to do next time. Make sure he has plenty of opportunity every day to run around and act wild at parks, on walks, in the garden. But not at the toddler group.

And also, as I’m sure many people have said; the two types of child aren’t “well behaved mouse” and “boisterous tearaway”.
The problem is the child that's well behaved becomes well behaved because they are told well done when they're quiet, the more boisterous child is either told off or gets attention turning them into the tear away. I've definitely done the hes so good, hes so quiet thing. My kids are spirited, not crazy, but I'd like them to be the kids that speak politely to adults and dont get antsy and mess. Saying that they regularly make me think I'm not doing too bad a job: eg at halloween ds10 had been given his sweets and the lady was closing the door and he said 'excuse me, sorry, but I dont think this girl was given any sweets' about a girl who he didnt know who was standing next to us. Then he stood aside to let her walk up to the door. It was one of those moments.

The problem is the child that's well behaved becomes well behaved because they are told well done when they're quiet, the more boisterous child is either told off or gets attention turning them into the tear away.

Yes, I think we do label and pigeon-hole children from a very young age (even younger than DS). That one's 'difficult' or 'a brat' or 'spoilt' or 'trouble'... It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in some ways. We parent challenging children more aggressively because we need to, which perhaps makes them more willing to respond aggressively to us and less afraid of us because it is more usual to them. Which is not necessarily a good thing, as it leads to those behavioural problems pp have pointed out.

Whereas quieter, more nervous children are generally the spectators of this. They are not in the group of "naughty" children and they slowly learn to "other" themselves from these children since they witness the disapproving response towards them. And because "good" children become used to adult approval from a young age, it becomes very important to them not to do anything which might lead to this approval being withdrawn. I remember my complete terror at school on the few occasions I did anything that even had the teacher speaking sternly to me. I really couldn't stand raised voices or aggression of any sort. So I would have done anything to stay out of the "naughty" group, to which I considered myself superior because I received more adult approval.

I don’t think that you are having ‘to parent’ more than your friend, as such, although you are rushed off your feet! But in time she will have work to do to encourage her daughter to take chances, leave her side and enjoy exploring. My son was always a proximity alarm as a young boy, like the daughter in the buggy (as I was) and I found it exhausting at playgroups as I always had to go with him to every single activity, show him how to interact and stay within a couple of metres while he explored, otherwise he would retreat to my lap or the buggy. I have spent many afternoons going round softplay with him as he just wouldn’t go without me. I understood it, as I was like that as a child, but I was wistful of the mums drinking tea and having a chat, making friends etc while their kids ran round the playgroup hall or set off independently to explore the softplay and I couldn’t have the mummy time as I was coaxing him down the slide. My daughter would go off without a backward glance — they are all different.

I really agree with this, that what is 'good' and 'easy' behaviour depends a lot on circumstance. My DS has a cousin the same age who has always been much more cautious and had much more separation anxiety - DS is very confident, settled well and easily into nursery, happily goes up to other children to play; his cousin won't leave his mum's side and they're considering delaying sending him to preschool in September because they think he'll react so badly. We spend a lot of time with them and have gone on holiday with them. They're both lovely, happy little boys but if you asked who was 'easier' it would massively depend what we were doing at the time. At a stately home my nephew is hands down easier (his mum was confused to what toddler reins were even for!), when DH and I are going out for dinner while my parents babysit and DB and SIL are meant to be joining us but can't because he's screaming until he's sick at his mum leaving then DS looks much 'easier'. DS is a great sleeper, DN is an appalling one. DS is occasionally over boisterous with other children and needs to be told to give them space; DN just won't interact with other children which really worries SIL and makes things like toddler groups really hard work. I think we both secretly think that we got the 'good' one, which I suppose is exactly how it should be!

I think we both secretly think that we got the 'good' one, which I suppose is exactly how it should be!

.

I’m appalled at some of the nasty comments on here about a TWO YEAR OLD. FFS, have you not heard of the terrible twos? I don’t think two year olds are generally noted for their etiquette and altruism.

And I think these kinds of comments illustrate one of the OP’s points perfectly. Adults - and especially teachers - tend to label children as a type from an early age, and that’s not a good thing.

I’m particularly appalled by the comment upthread from someone who claims to have seen a lot of children like the OP’s son when she or he was teaching in secondary school, some of whom were permanently excluded. These must have been very advanced TWO YEAR OLDS to be hanging around in schools, but seriously - anyone who a) hasn’t understood that your child is a toddler and b) thinks that his behaviour as a toddler could be an accurate predictor of his future needs to get the fuck out of teaching.

You answered your own question re: striking a balance.

I raised 6 girls. They're all very different, funny, sociable, intelligent and reasonably well balanced individuals but we could also take them anywhere.

It's about boundaries: they are everywhere in life and kids have to be taught to understand and respect that.

In terms of how to do it: pick your battles, be realistic in your expectations but reign in where necessary.

Rule of thumb is to realise kids will be kids but that doesn't involve them doing as they please and conformity is a fact of life.

Just out of interest, does anyone wish they'd been a stricter parent with their DC?

Lots of pp think they've managed to strike a good balance. And it's been really interesting to hear from the ones who think they should have been more relaxed (with hindsight).

But does anyone have a 'spirited' DC and think, now that they're older or grown up, that they should have been tougher in the early years?

It's about boundaries

Not really for everyone.

Mine were like ops Ds at 2 years old and older. They were raised with few boundaries and have turned out to be confident, hard working and have many friends.

It doesn’t follow that just because your children responds to your boundaries if you had another child then that child might not.
As one of the other mums at dcs school found out.

Just out of interest, does anyone wish they'd been a stricter parent with their DC

Absolutely not

Dc say they had an amazing times growing up and me letting them work out their own personal behaviour they think has made them better people because of it.

They would come home sometimes incredulous over some of the rules their friends had to follow.

Not tougher per se, but I wish I'd been more confident about boundaries. Parenting the first child usually a steep learning curve!

The simple fact is you teach your children to behave appropriately to where they are . If they are in a "proper" restaurant they are quiet and well behaved - if they are in soft play they can run around. I was brought up in the military and we sued to get taken to the Officers Mess for Sunday lunch occasionally. My parents KNEW we would behave impeccably, because we were taught to. We went to a park I would run around screaming. Actually i wouldn't have as no kids screamed in those days unless you were dying. But that's another thread entirely...

I wish I had been stricter over some things and more relaxed over others.

I never thought the main point was to raise someone to be popular or confident. I thought the main point was to raise someone to be a decent human being.

I don’t know if people have particularly said my kids were well behaved, but they have said they are nice, kind, lovely.

Many two year olds are wild, and their behaviour doesn’t predict much about how they will be at Four or fourteen or forty.

I never thought the main point was to raise someone to be popular or confident. I thought the main point was to raise someone to be a decent human being

Ok then dc have turned out to be popular and confident and decent human beings.

Actually i wouldn't have as no kids screamed in those days unless you were dying.

That's right, screaming was invented in 1982

We took our 5 year old to posh restaurants. From birth we went to lots of restaurants. We did it when they were empty though. Dinner at 5pm in the Chinese. So he didn't have to behave perfectly.
When he was 5 he behaved badly in a packed place. I took him outside, while my DH paid the bill. That was the turning point for us.
He needed boundaries and consequences. He liked eating out. No problems after that. I always took something to do colouring book was a favourite that we did together.
I wouldn't aim for perfect though.

Actually no one did scream when I was a child either. Your parents truly would have thought someone was dead! I find parents taking no action to stop dcs screaming bewildering. It’s not necessary in any play scenario. Or in the supermarket. I think some parents are deaf to it so I guess it’s a constant noise! For the rest of us, it’s awful!

Raymond Blanc welcomes children at Le Manoir aux Quat’ Saisons. If your dc can go there, you’ve cracked it!

@My0My. I think if we were eating there, we'd definitely stump up for a babysitter... No matter how well behaved DC were!

Mine both had their 10th birthday party lunches there. With 5 friends from school plus us two parents. Not a moments problem. RB spoke to them personally and whipped up a special desert for one guest who wasn’t sure about those on the menu. RB served it up personally. So no, they were not 2, or 3, but by 10 all the guests and DDs were brilliant to take out. Mocktails on the lawn were great too! And yes, people were there with younger dc!

But does anyone have a 'spirited' DC and think, now that they're older or grown up, that they should have been tougher in the early years?

Yes. I had a ‘spirited’ toddler, really had no idea what to do with him, and now have a rather unpleasant 18 year old.

I voted YANBU as clearly you're doing something right if he is well behaved at nursery and they love him! I think you are doing all the right things- firm words and tone, getting down to their level, time outs and put in pushchair etc. How old is he? I think consistency is key. Me and my sister was brought up as you were; I was a shy child but rebelled as a teenager, my sister was confident as a child and a nervous, shy teenager! 🤷‍♀️ My own children, I taught them the same way you have, taught them boundaries and consequences etc, with a firm but kind tone, and they used to play up for me but were angels for everyone else. Your son knows you are his safe place and can be himself with. Be kind to yourself, you are doing amazingly