To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

@flatoutpanic. Do you mind if I ask you what the main issues are? And I don't want to pry or be insensitive, but looking back can you pinpoint anything in particular you would have done differently with hindsight?

[quote OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]@flatoutpanic. Do you mind if I ask you what the main issues are? And I don't want to pry or be insensitive, but looking back can you pinpoint anything in particular you would have done differently with hindsight?[/quote]
I should have followed through with my threats/rewards more consistently, had higher expectations (e.g. sitting at the table, doing small jobs to help out), not spoilt him (more DH on this one - huge time and financial investment into a hobby) and been stricter in taking his phone away from him (obviously when 12+).

He’s really entitled now, didn’t try at school, lies constantly, won’t do anything to help at home and doesn’t really want to be part of the family.

And I was exactly the same as you growing up onestep!

Just out of interest, does anyone wish they'd been a stricter parent with their DC?

I do - but it's complicated. Sorry, this will be long. My eldest child is 11, I also have a nearly 2 year old, so I haven't forgotten the toddler phase, but I do also have some perspective :)

I was a compliant child, I dislike conflict and worry very much if somebody seems angry with me, even now.

I am not very good at boundaries. I suppose I didn't have much of a model for it - my sister is quiet and compliant as well and my mum, having hated and been frightened by harsh discipline as a child never did anything remotely harsh or strict. She was very very understanding and never pushed us into anything we were the slightest bit uncomfortable with. We just negotiated everything and because the three of us are all quite eager to please it always worked. I have always seen her as an incredibly gentle and nurtiring person and assumed I'd parent in a similar way.

When DS1 was born I liked what I read about attachment parenting - no sleep training, the closeness, no routines, respect for the child's nature etc, and so I did that. When he moved into the toddler years I became aware of the topic of gentle discipline and the idea that you could parent without punishment or threats ever. I was intrigued (there is a really old MN thread where I asked about it!) and the more I read about it the more I became convinced this was right for me. Actually, I still think a lot of the philosophy behind gentle discipline is sound and the methods are very good and generally better than anything based on punishment/threat of.

But - the first problem I found with the gentle parenting movement is that most of the advice is written with the assumption that the parent reading it is TOO harsh, TOO authoritarian, TOO quick to jump to punishment and criticism, and needs alternatives to that. Whereas my problem is the opposite - left to my own devices I am too permissive, too quick to let things go, a bit lazy, and ultimately I am extremely conflict-avoidant because conflict, and people being upset with me, scare me. I do not and have never liked being in charge. So what I actually needed was not "how to be more gentle" but "how to be a leader".

Another problem is that a lot of gentle parenting resources (like many parenting resources) are pitched in a kind of "Aren't we so much more enlightened than those other parents" manner, and this sets up a kind of "us and them" divide, meaning that I tended to distrust advice from any source which seemed (to me) to eschew values that weren't "in line with the gentle parenting philosophy". This was immensely unhelpful. Another issue with this is that because it's constantly going on about how shouting, threatening, criticising and other things people do when they are under extreme stress are harmful, it means that if you find yourself doing these things you do not admit it to your gentle parenting friends/support group/mentors. Or if you do, all you get in response is tips on how to not do these things consciously/why not to use them as a strategy, which isn't much use when the actual problem is that you're getting to a state where they're coming out as a stress response, and what you actually need is to be parenting in such a way that you're NOT getting that incredibly stressed in the first place.

I never got there. I have always found discipline/behaviour management incredibly stressful. I thought that if I just poured enough love and respect and understanding into my DS he would eventually reflect that back onto me. That is what all the gentle parenting sites promised, and I believed them. I thought that putting up with some behaviour that I found inconvenient or unpleasant when he was little was okay because he would grow out of it (he did, BTW, but not before I became utterly burnt out from coping with it) and when he was older we would have a fantastic relationship and he would trust me. He does talk to me, but he treats me more like a sibling than a parent. He doesn't really get that he's not my equal, and I completely understand why, because I have spent 11 years acting like he is, because I thought that was part of the gentle parenting philosophy. This is becoming a problem because at 11 he is starting to be more independent and act "like a grown up" in some ways and so of course believes that means he is as competent as a real grown up, which he is not. He is 11. Sometimes adults need to make decisions which he does not agree with for his own good. Honestly, I think we will get through it and he will be OK - I don't have serious concerns about the way he will "turn out" at least not in relation to parenting, but I DO think that I could have made my life a lot easier, and (in hindsight!) saved myself a lot of stress and unpleasantness, by making the distinction (adult/child) clear and not being afraid of this as though it was something draconian - it is not, it is actually reassuring - I now think some of DS1's worst behaviour (between the ages of 3 and 5, which were probably the darkest years of my life in all honesty) was probably him trying to get me to BE such a leader/display leadership because he probably felt insecure. If I had just known how to do that at that time, I think it would have been easier. I think our relationship has probably been damaged, all because I thought that boundaries were something which needed to exist for safety issues only, and conflict avoidance was preferable to modelling healthy/nonviolent conflict when such an opportunity came up.

Yes, I wish I had been stricter although perhaps not in a traditional sense. I don't think more time outs or a sterner tone of voice would have made a difference. I think me being confident and comfortable in my role as leader would have done. And really it is not scary to be in charge of a toddler. You definitely know more about the world than they do. It is not even scary to be in charge of a (nearly) teenager - I definitely still know more about the world than he does, and I am in an excellent position to guide and support him. It doesn't mean I don't respect and listen to where he wants to go.

As I said earlier in the thread, I have found Janet Lansbury and RIE type parenting resources/Visible Child to be useful in the whole "how to have boundaries while also respecting your child's autonomy" thing. Although it is still a mystery to me how to apply this to an 11 year old. It has helped me process my fear/reluctance to place myself in a higher hierarchical position, which is useful.

FWIW, DS1 was more like the toddler in the buggy when he was 2. DS2 is the one I am diving in front of bikes to rescue and constantly saying "Take that out of your mouth" and having heart stopping moments as he teeters on the edge of a massive concrete staircase or river (laughing gleefully). DS2 has more self-control and is more amenable to instruction than DS1 was at his age, though.

It is so much personality at this age but parenting does play a part in how easy or not it will be as they get older. DS1 also has ADHD so you would think he would have been the wild toddler, but he is simply not a thrill seeker and likely never will be.

I think DS2 will be easier as he gets older, not only because I've discovered that being in charge isn't actually scary, but also because he is very responsive to ordinary parenting techniques in a way that DS1 is not because of the ADHD. (Of course, DS2 could turn out to have ADHD as well but I don't think so).

@BertieBotts Thank you for your very reflective and insightful post.

This is a fascinating thread.

BertieBotts

A really interesting post.

Like you I was intrigued by the NVC/positive/attachment approach and as a bit of a closet hippie I decided to follow that route.

However it has worked for me, but I think that is due to luck more than anything else, in that my children are both introverts ( like OH and I) so getting them to behave in public was always easy.
Having said that they were happy go lucky and demonstrative at home, but I never saw a situation that ever needed punishment.
I did expect high standards, and my kids were never punished at school either.
I didn't shout or manipulate them in other ways either, for me the positive approach has really worked.
Amazingly well.
My kids are quietly confident, able to do things like perform or give a presentation, have a good circle of friends.
It has been an easy road.

This is why parenting is so hard and general “methods” to be treated with caution. So much depends on the child and parents personality.

I was one of 3 two older ones similar natures youngest totally different. Parents realised just in time that their third child an entirely different proposition to first two and needed utterly different parenting approach.

MsTSwift

Isn't it hard to mix styles though?
I took a no punishment/no random reward route.
It would have been very difficult to use no punishment for one child and the naughty step/reward charts for another.
Children may see some of that very unfair.

So many interesting points to think about. I think being a child of the 70s/80s was different too - we were much more likely to be submissive and do as we were told.

Younger girls tend to be easier to manage than boys in my experience, although this doesn’t necessarily last through teenage years. So as a Mum of boys, it can be quite overwhelming - you have your experience of being a compliant child, but are then faced with a very different prospect.

@flatoutpanic, @BertieBotts. Thank you for sharing your experiences, I found them really interesting and food for thought.

It can be hard to admit when we think we have made mistakes or should have done something differently (especially in relation to our own children, where we are naturally biased). Although I do think personality rather than parenting plays a bigger role than we give it credit for, so plenty of 'good' parents have children perceived as 'difficult' and vice versa.

I feel for you OP - it can be a difficult balance. My eldest was firmly in the non-compliant camp and had a cousin who was the perfect compliant child - at least superficially. My DM would go on about how naughty DS was (and what a sweet child the cousin was) and although I didn't realise at the time and feel guilty about it now, her comments and approach did DS a lot of damage.

The reality was that his naughtiness was very much on show (he was very hyper and probably had ADHD but that wasn't recognised in those days) whereas the cousin was very sneaky and would provoke other children and then they would get told off for the reaction!

My DS is now in his thirties and has had some mental health issues, down at least in part to the way his naughtiness was dealt with as a child. I feel awful for not seeing how this was affecting him, as in spite of his extrovert personality, he is a sensitive soul and cares deeply about how others see him.

It is interesting to note that many of those who were his contemporaries who fell into the "naughty" camp and who were given what was felt to be "free rein" have actually mostly grown up into perfectly well-balanced, caring and pleasant individuals.

I'm not sure of the answer but I think the balance has to be that not too much restraint is possibly better than too much - and certainly that boisterous, adventurous children still need affirmation and praise for the really positive aspects of their personality.

I was quite a naughty child right from toddler, and am now quite an unhappy adult. So.....

Also, the impression I'm beginning to get is that most behavioural characteristics are a spectrum, with a broad 'acceptable' area in the middle, and then two less desirable extremes at each end.

So one middle ground might be 'be kind and considerate towards others'. The unacceptable extreme is a child who is self-centred and aggressive towards others. However, the opposite extreme is one who is too yielding and passive and afraid of interactions with other children.

I think we generally view it as being more of a problem when young children are at the self-centred and aggressive extreme. And it is more of a problem for other people because the child's behaviour is more visible and impacts upon others. But it is often as great a problem for the child themselves to be at the yielding and passive end of the spectrum and be afraid to assert themselves. Yet since these children carry the label of 'good' and 'well-behaved', they can sometimes be overlooked for help because they don't cause any trouble. I think parents have to be as active to try to intervene and build confidence and assertiveness in these cases as they should be to teach and reinforce boundaries to those at the other end of the spectrum.

The reality was that his naughtiness was very much on show (he was very hyper and probably had ADHD but that wasn't recognised in those days) whereas the cousin was very sneaky and would provoke other children and then they would get told off for the reaction!

Hanging out with my friends with more than one, one thing that has shocked me is how much the "good child" often enjoys hearing the other one being told off ... It cracks me up to see the look of glee on their faces sometimes ! But I remember being exactly the same as a child...I loved it when someone was being told off but it wasn't me . Not a facet of my childish personality that I look back on with any degree of pride.

Actually no one did scream when I was a child either. Your parents truly would have thought someone was dead! I find parents taking no action to stop dcs screaming bewildering. It’s not necessary in any play scenario. Or in the supermarket. I think some parents are deaf to it so I guess it’s a constant noise! For the rest of us, it’s awful!

I know a few shriekers. All play is just done with constant screaming. The other day at a lovely remote tranquil beach and someone in our groups ds roared and screamed constantly while the mum giggled lovingly at her adorably loud child rather than making any attempt to stop it. One other family moved away, mum was oblivious to that. Lots of people don't realise their child's 'spirited' behaviour is less adorable to the rest of us!

I posted the above quote about screaming but I also recognise that being utterly afraid to express an opinion is damaging too. So yes, OP, something in the middle is the Holy Grail!

Personally screaming is something we're quite strict about here. Possibly because it's not much of a problem (DS has never really been a screamer but does do it very occasionally) so it's an easy win for us! It annoys the hell out of us, DH especially (both of us are quite naturally quiet people). We can tolerate loud playing and some shouting but not screaming - we didn't lose our hearing when we became parents ! But we try not to judge, partly because our next one may very well be a screamer and our smugness on this one point may evaporate. From what I can see observing other parents, it's quite a difficult one to put a stop to sometimes.

My sibling went through a stage when they were about 4 when they screamed for about an hour every bedtime. I'm pretty sure my parents tried to do something about it although I was very young so cant remember what the solution was except shutting the door of their bedroom.(I bet the neighbours loved us!) We went to stay with some friends and they screamed there as well and the friends said we could never stay there again it was so awful.(although I clearly remember staying with them when we were older, like junior school age)

It is interesting to note that many of those who were his contemporaries who fell into the "naughty" camp and who were given what was felt to be "free rein" have actually mostly grown up into perfectly well-balanced, caring and pleasant individuals

Dd and Ds fall into this category.

I think having strict boundaries etc is what some children need and they thrive on knowing the rules but for others having a loose framework of keep the noise down to a medium roar and you can run around, do what you want so long as you are in sight or I can hear you, you don’t hurt yourselves or others and don’t eat the grass was enough.

As they got older they could go anywhere and stay out till very late as long as I knew where and they phoned to tell me if the location was going to change.

Dc were always quite happy to do this.

If teen dc want to go somewhere then teen dc I have found are going to go with or without findmyphone type apps.
Leaving the phone at a friends house and going without a phone I thought was a lot more dangerous than saying yes and asking that they call in every so often throughout the evening.

Both my DDs have turned into screamers recently. It's appalling. I am absolutely at a loss as to how to stop it. It gives me a blind rage to hear them screaming in each other's faces. This is at home not in public. If we were in public and they started I would bring them straight home obviously. I'm also a quiet person so it's incredibly grating. Short of clamping a muzzle over their mouths or throwing one of them outside I can't stop it - it's so frequent. It's infuriating. Tips welcome!

@Colom. The nearest I've come to physically shaking DS has been when he's been screaming like this. All the other mischief I can put up with.

No advice (he doesn't do it often), but you have my sympathy .

I'm not really sure at home and obviously depends on age. But in the situation were an 8 year old was running around yelling rraaaaahh in public where others are trying to have a peaceful time for well over an hour I'd absolutely have given them a warning then taken them home if it hadn't stopped. The same child has done the same in the museum and been giggled at by adoring mum

The same child has done the same in the museum and been giggled at by adoring mum

It is very strange that she thinks this is adorable...Maybe the mum is more extroverted than I am. I would find this mortifying (though wouldn't necessarily be able to deal with it particularly effectively beyond saying a stern no and leaving).

I think children need discipline, but not too much that you take their confidence away. It's finding the balance.