To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

This has been such an interesting thread! It's made me think abut about what we actually mean by 'well-behaved'? I think for me (and I'm not talking about 2 or 3 year olds here) it's being able to adapt your behaviour to a situation and know the right time and place - so, you sit down and chat nicely in a restaurant, you run around and go mad in the park. I'm also very big on manners and speaking 'kindly' to other people, both adults and other children. But, I love hearing different opinions and having a good debate, so have always encouraged ideas and tried to encourage self-expression. I've also said to my son that he should stand up for what he believes in, even if it means standing alone. And I will keep reiterating this as he gets older.
But, I do think that our own personalities play a massive part in all this.
I'm definitely not a disciplinarian, mainly because I'm naturally too gentle and easy going to be so (my husband thinks that I'm far too soft). I can count on 1 hand the times that I've shouted and have never used the whole naughty step thing, but my son does listen to me. And because I'm fairly easy going most of the time, I have noticed that, on the rare occasion I do lose my temper, I can see the look of shock on his face and it really has impact. I definitely think that nagging children all the time can cause them to tune out and really important messages are lost.

Just to throw one out that, can extroverted children ever be 'well-behaved' in the conventional sense (at least at a young age)? Or are they always going to require some degree of reining in to get them there, unlike introverted children who may naturally be considered well-behaved without much parental intervention?

Also (and I'm not sure where I stand on this one), is our school system set up to favour introverts or extroverts?

Sorry, 'out there' not 'out that'.

Manners so important. Gave my 14 year old and friends a lift the other day two of the girls walked off without thanking me! Was shocked and judged hard. So important that your child is thoughtful and likeable whether they loud or quiet.

I think some extroverted children can be very 'well behaved' because they realise that they get a lot of praise and attention for it. This is more so if they're surrounded by adults rather than other children. For instance, you get the very precocious children (often eldest or only children) who are generally quite well-behaved, but adults still often find them quite annoying!

you get the very precocious children (often eldest or only children) who are generally quite well-behaved, but adults still often find them quite annoying!

Has anyone come across any children who, even though they're not naughty or deliberately unpleasant, really irritate you? If so, why? Would you avoid inviting them to parties or playdates because of this or would you grit your teeth and have them anyway?

My reason for asking this is because, even though I never really put a foot out of line as a child and was never rude, I wasn't hugely invited to playdates or parties either (I did get to go to a few so please don't feel too sorry for me!). Also, I had one teacher who really couldn't stand me and I've often wondered why when I was never the one answering back or chatting at the back of the class.

This thread has been so interesting. I've actually been thinking about it a lot. My daughter is 2.5 and her "hit rate" of doing as she's told is about 50% - which, to me, feels quite normal for a toddler. My mum is appalled when she doesn't instantly comply with instruction and will often say things like "you would never have dared not do as you were told" or "you always listened to me first time" etc. Prior to having my own child I assumed this was because my mum was a "good parent" and therefore had raised "good children" - but actually, looking back, I realise that I was absolutely terrified of my mum most of the time - terrified of her temper, terrified of being smacked, terrified of disappointing her and facing her coldness - and I've realised that I don't want my daughter to be afraid of me. It's hard because I need to find a balance between providing boundaries and discipline so my daughter respects me, but doing so in a way that doesn't cause her to be fearful and allows her to retain her independence. And having no model for that whatsoever is hard.

Manners so important. Gave my 14 year old and friends a lift the other day two of the girls walked off without thanking me! Was shocked and judged hard. So important that your child is thoughtful and likeable whether they loud or quiet

My DC are 10 and 14 and I am (possibly unreasonably) shocked at how few automatically say please and thank you, and have any decent table manners. I could count on 1 hand the number of DS friends who can behave reasonably at the table (others throw food, put food on their face, get under the table, back chat if you request they sit down or encourage them to eat a vegetable, complain if they cant have something that wasnt offered etc) This is around 8-10 years old, not toddlers.
DDs teenage friends sometimes ignore the first few times I ask if they want something and then might grunt or send in a request with DD which I find quite rude when I have already offered choices.

Yeah kids like your dd are found quite annoying for the most part. Your smiling emojis seem to suggest you find it amusing. But it’s really quite rude.

She should probably learn at that age not to butt in on other people’s conversations!

And people generally find know-it-alls insufferable don’t they? I was a bit of one when I was younger, too.

Has anyone come across any children who, even though they're not naughty or deliberately unpleasant, really irritate you?
Whilst not necessarily poor-behaviour as such, I've never tolerated whinging and whining at all as I just can't stand it and it really does make children so irritating to be around.
Your daughter sounds delightful Cacacois and that parent at the zoo sounds like a right misery!

Certain kids do irritate me yes. Smart alecs grate on me. Re play dates though, unless they are are awful I just ask who my daughter requests. The bubbly/popular children are the ones that tend to get invited the most T-shirt than the impeccably behaved, or those who's parents host a lot too as people often feel the need to reciprocate. I don't host too many so dd doesn't get invited to as many as she used to as a result.

It’s so subjective it’s impossible to say why you like a child or not like with adults! I personally don’t like kids who are wet and whiny. I like the quieter thoughtful ones and the sparky chatty ones.

Talking back to adults when given reasonable instruction and not saying thank you and treating adults likes staff puts me right off any child irrespective of temperament! Wait on your child at your peril as they will expect this of other adults and it is NOT endearing 🙄.

The zoo incident perhaps depends a bit on context...but, provided I was standing right next to them and they said it in a pleasant way, I wouldn't find it rude for a child to tell me and presumably another/younger child something interesting.

Those precociously well-behaved, 'too grown up' children can be immensely irritating, because they think they're grown-ups and they're not. They can be clingy and intrusive in adult company, arrogant at school. I remember feeling quite sorry for kids like that, who didn't know how to be a child, to muck in and get on with other children, so acted as sanctimonious tell-tales and inhibitive intruders upon adult conversation.

Now, as an adult, I've had moments of issuing simple instructions (in the context of full prior understanding), because we need to get things done and move on to the next thing in good time, and that kind of arrogance is infuriating.

OTOH, DC who can talk confidently to adults, for a while, understanding that they are stills kids, are charming. That sort of happy confidence is a real life skill.

Those precociously well-behaved, 'too grown up' children can be immensely irritating, because they think they're grown-ups and they're not. They can be clingy and intrusive in adult company, arrogant at school. I remember feeling quite sorry for kids like that, who didn't know how to be a child, to muck in and get on with other children, so acted as sanctimonious tell-tales and inhibitive intruders upon adult conversation.

You’ve just perfectly described my friend’s eldest. I find myself clenching my teeth around her a LOT.

And friend knows she’s a precocious little so and so!

OTOH her younger Dd is like your last paragraph and is just brilliant!

So that’s very much nature over nurture because they’ve been raised by the same parents in the same house with no life-altering events in between!

I don't find it likely that being confident and bright annoys people Cacacois but poor social skills will. It is normal for DCs' social skills to be less well developed than their intellect (in the narrow sense) and/or their confidence and this can make them very annoying at times.

For example, talking at people instead of to them. Intruding upon other people's conversations and non-verbal interactions. (I wonder whether the parent in your zoo example considered herself to be fully occupied in social discourse with her own child). Saying things just because you know them, with no prompt or indication that the other party is interested. That's not conversation, it's broadcasting (and in adult life, often mansplaining, as women generally socialise themselves out of this habit) and is very, very tedious.

I don't know about your example of course, as I wasn't there. Maybe the other mum was actively seeking more information, or discussing the animals more widely with other people. But my point stands that, in general, it's not the knowledge or confidence that annoys people.

The painfully shy/quiet children are not fun to have around without their parent so you are responsible for guessing if they are ok, trying to establish what they eat etc. It can be quite awkward.

I'm finding these comments both enlightening and challenging...

Because it seems it isn't enough just to raise a respectful, obedient child.

You must also make sure that they have enough confidence that they are not painfully shy and quiet and can't stand up for themselves. But you must make sure that they're not too assertive and don't stand up for themselves too much, otherwise they're precocious, annoying and argumentative! Also, they must be able to sit quietly and talk to their parents' adult friends appropriately but also make themselves scarce at the precise moment when their presence becomes de trop to the adults in question!

It sounds like a difficult tight-rope to walk for an adult, let alone a child! But I would like to guide DS appropriately so that he is generally liked by most people and has a happy childhood. So I'm finding it all slightly daunting.

@Cacacoisfarraige no need for the defensive sarcasm.

If you hadn’t worded it like she’d interrupted then posters wouldn’t have thought she had.

What bubble of mine have you burst? It wasn’t me who spoke of children hanging out with adults. That was another poster?

Well, I know I've had experience of my child's 'general question' actually being directed at me, because we were already engaged in ongoing conversation, albeit with pauses. When other adults (usually men), jump in to answer, I find it irritating. They don't know the context of that conversation, or our prior conversations on that topic, therefore what the relevant (rather than 'a right') answer might be.

It's not usually a big deal and it's good for DC to understand that people have different perspectives and areas of knowledge and (at the right age) that you have to apply some critical thinking and research skills to get to the answer you're interested in.

As an adult, I'd always defer to the parent, rather than jump in. Then enter with caution, seeking approving parental cues. The hair of a honey badger does seem less likely to prompt awkward questions later though, than the existence of god, acceptability of sexism, or swearing, for example!