First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean.

The solution to your query lies in the words you use.

Native and non native. If you mean someone born in the UK to immigrant parentsbtehn they are British. And don't buy in to anything that suggests otherwise. if you do, you undermine everyone else.

Native and non native. If you mean someone born in the UK to immigrant parentsbtehn they are British.
No, I meant first generation immigrants, like myself. Apologies for not being precise.

Ooooh. I am interested in this too. First gen, don't get the obsession, confuse people with how I was growing up😂 We have classes too, but never in my life was I made aware by anyone of which class I was. Till UK.

I'm not a huge fan of the class system if I'm honest so as a rule I don't think I tend to think of people in terms of class so I might not be the best person to comment.

The people who are being seemingly rude, patronising, and generally underestimating you could be dong it for several reasons. Unless you ask them it'll probably be hard for people on the internet to suggest what might be causing it.

They could be going off of stereotypes they've been brought up with.

They could just be a bit up themselves/feel a bit self important so like to give unsolicited advice and just assume most people need to 'better' themselves.

It could be something about how you speak, act, dress (ie. something entirely within your control) that potentially reminds them of someone/people they've met who have all been a certain way.

You what now?
Do people actually go around assigning individuals in their lives to ‘classes’?
I am aware of the concept of class.
I am interested when I read articles about topics where socio-economic class is relevant.
I have never stopped to think about what class any individual in my life is - be they born in Britain or elsewhere.
That’s not an attempt to be all right-on and “I don’t see class.” I wouldn’t be surprised (though I’d be ashamed) if I had subconscious class prejudices... But I can’t imagine actively giving mental energy to deciding what ‘class’ someone that I met, was.

I‘be never managed to work out what class I am... so no, I don’t try to work out how other people fit in, lol

This perception of being uneducated is something I came across too (first generation immigrant).
I think it’s to do with appearances mostly. If you are well-dressed, you will be treated differently (not one experience, many instances). I am sure this well-dressed vs scruffy thing happens to native British people too (white or other ethnicities).

Not sure if this relates but I had someone assume I had a junior role in healthcare automatically rather than the more senior I held. (Hadn't even opened my mouth by that point and had only just met this person). I have no doubt it was an assumption based on my skin colour and foreign last name.
I wasn't offended though-we all make assumptions and sometimes we can't help what comes out of mouths.

@Ellisandra

You what now? Do people actually go around assigning individuals in their lives to ‘classes’? I am aware of the concept of class. I am interested when I read articles about topics where socio-economic class is relevant. I have never stopped to think about what class any individual in my life is - be they born in Britain or elsewhere. That’s not an attempt to be all right-on and “I don’t see class.” I wouldn’t be surprised (though I’d be ashamed) if I had subconscious class prejudices... But I can’t imagine actively giving mental energy to deciding what ‘class’ someone that I met, was.

If this is true you would be quite outside of the norm on MN, where an obsession with class seems to be quite the thing.

Do people actually go around assigning individuals in their lives to ‘classes’?

Perhaps not consciously. But I think British people do this without even thinking about it.

It comes down to how you speak, your sense of entitlement and general 'air' towards others.

This is an interesting subject as I have lived in the UK for 40 years and for the first 30 I would have sworn that the class system didn't exist any more. But it does!

I think it depends on lots of things, I'm Italian and came here when I was 5, people always think I'm a lot posher than I am, and usually think I'm English too.

That's because I learnt English mainly through some really old fashioned 'English as a foreign language' children's VHS tapes/and my after school tutor called Rupert - picked up his accent!

I used to speak RP but got bullied until it dulled down to 'general Southern'

@choli an obsession with class generally - but actually thinking about it with individuals?

I’m not saying you’re wrong... just that it’s not something I’ve ever witnessed.

So I’ve heard real conversations about such and such an estate being full of chavs, or the usual tosh about “oh well the really posh wear old worn out clothes.” But all generalised stereotypes. I’ve never heard anyone actually consider whether a specific known acquaintance is any particular class 🤷🏻‍♀️

I got a feeling for lots of people here the class, if it's working class, creates part of their identity. I had quite a few people dropping it into conversation. "As a working class I....". I think because in here it's for so many part of identity, they can't subconsciously comprehend it isn't for many from other countries?

Yes. Mumsnet is quite obsessed with class. A lot of these posters are simply insecure. But I do understand that this approach to class puts me at a disadvantage.
There are numerous scientific studies that provide evidence about how conscious and unconscious bias plays a big role in getting better paid roles, hiring women, hiring someone from a lower socioeconomic class, etc.
I was reading this article the other day: your hobbies on CV tend to indicate your class and can give you a huge boost in terms of landing an interview at the top law firms in the US.
So these things definitely play a big role, especially against women.

@Ellisandra
I just used "class" as a proxy for a complex set of social, educational and economic circumstances. If a myriad previous threads on MN are anything to go by, many people do have this "class radar" (I don't, due to growing up in a different country and culture). Likewise, it will probably take me a couple of minutes to guesstimate the background of a person from my own culture (I very much hope that it does not affect my attitude to them, but it pretty much happens automatically). So I was just wondering how this works when there is a cross-cultural barrier and there are no universal cues.

This seems like a thorough explanation of classes:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Kingdom

In terms of recognising people in a certain class then it's pretty much what you said. It's a mixture of:

• Outward appearance
• Aspirations (which you pick up on in hearing what people like to talk about)
• Home life (do they own a home, plan to own a home etc)
• What school do the kids go to
• What phrases they use

It's all a bunch of stereotypes and is a bit of a horrible way to look at people though. There's a common british saying 'Money can't buy you class' and a lot of the class system is about who has money and who doesn't.

Having said that, there's always one girl I was in halls with who always sticks out for me when it comes to class. You could definitely describe her as upper class and you could tell straight away based on appearance, how she held herself and her accent. But she confirmed it once she started talking about 'Country homes', 'Marrying well', 'Private school', 'Mummy and Daddy' etc.

I didn’t know I had a class until I moved here.

Then again, that was the 80s, and class warrior was quite the thing.

I think we are slightly unusual in I live in a mostly immigrant area of London so the children at the fee paying schools my children went to are mostly not British born or their parents or grandparents are not eg my son had no other white boy in his private school class a few years ago which is not an issue for me - if it were I would move to an all white all native British county.

I don't care what class people are and hope I treat everyone with respect and kindness whoever they are. I can find things in common with everyone.

On the question posed Rishi Sunak was head boy of Winchester and his class is clear. Priti Patel does not speak quite normally or right so that indicates not the same class to me. I cannot remember what she says but it always irritates me when she does and it will be because of going to a state school and her original class.

So I suppose accent is one point not that I am going to be avoiding people with the "wrong" accent or who say "haitch" or drop their ts etc. Another point will be general cultural issues - do they sing Bach in their spare time as I do or whatever.... Are they showing with money - by all means splash the cash but that tends to indicate nouveau riche. people can buy any flashy watches or gold or cars they like but is another marker of not quite being U as it were....

The acquaintance of the poster here was a bit rude which will show her class. Most people don't go around telling others they think they are lower class!

I think it’s to do with appearances mostly. If you are well-dressed, you will be treated differently (not one experience, many instances).
Yeah, I think this might be a major component. I am generally quite scruffy/unkempt and a bit overweight.
I mean, it must be something very superficial, I am just trying to narrow it down to what it could be.

So I was just wondering how this works when there is a cross-cultural barrier and there are no universal cues.
It definitely goes against first generation immigrants. Our minds are programmed to choose things that are similar to our taste/inclination.
The first step is to acknowledge this. And then work on it. For example, if two candidates have very similar accomplishments/CV, the candidate from the lower socioeconomic background may actually be much smarter because they didn’t receive the same previledges and still got the same level of success. Once we incorporate this mindset in our society, we will start to see great changes. Diversity in boards and teams leads to success.

It's sad that people have to feel like this. My belief is that you should not play in this class system at all... You will always be marginalised, in subtle ways. We have a big big, insiduous and intrinsic problem in our 'society'. The most truly respected, will shut down this kind of nonsense and only entertain decency. Please don't fall into the trap of trying to be like some British version of "decent". We are so xenophobic nowadays that it is the wrong thing to do. A Medieval feudal system and class deference exists today. Certain people love to keep it that way. But not all, trust me. Even those born into wealth. Just carry walking from ignorance.

Interesting question OP.

I think class is the big divide in this country, regardless of ethnic background. Was your new acquaintance middle class or working class?

One of things I find interesting about mumsnet is just how middle class it is. There is a kind of code and heavy policing of words you just would not find IRL in working class discussion and this is regardless of ethnic background. The taking offence on second gens/non natives behalf. When in reality the latter are often not offended at all. This limits working class discussion between all working class ethnic backgrounds.

For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System?

surely that depends on WHERE in the class system the native belong to in the first place...

Rishi Sunak is a sort of a hybrid I would say. He went to an elite school (paid fees or was on scholarship? I don’t know about that). Both his parents were in healthcare and could probably afford to pay. That sort of educational background gives you a lot of previledge and opportunities. Once in the US, he went for a girl from one of the wealthiest families in India. So it sort of all adds up. Eton sets you up for life.

Rishi Sunak isn't a first gen immigrant though.