First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

I think the traditional class system is something people think about less and less these days.

and yet... we live in under a Monarchy
Kate Middleton (and her mother!) were abused for years because they were not "upper class enough" if you read haters comments..
Insulting terms to describe the "under-class" are part of the daily language

If there's a country with a very obvious and very present class system, it's clearly Britain.

Santa most countries have a class system... none are something to be proud of.

Also @Flaxmeadow, I don't think socialists or communists would agree that class no longer exists. Quite the opposite. I mean, most of their ideology is based around class

Yes very much so but the problem now is that the left's politics are not based in the old class traditions, such as the old unions etc.

Now the left is more about fringe and minority issues and the left of old, which had a class perspective, is disappearing. I believe this is partly because this new, very much middle class led, left is very much based on London perspectives, and not the pespective of the old industrial districts. The 'red wall' area for example

So can you define "middle class led left"?

Or even "middle class lead left"!

So can you define "middle class led left"?

The current Labour party

@OnTheFencePaint
I think a lot of people are working from home these days, no? Our living circumstances are actually quite similar, I am living on the next street to her. The only difference is that I am single and she is partnered. I don't think we have ever discussed home ownership, jobs or finances before. Ah, I don't have a car either but not because I cannot afford one.

...and academia, the arts, the media. Pretty much the whole establishment

I guess some class markers are sort of generally universal even if they present in different ways in people from different countries and cultures. For example you can tell whether someone has expensive looking clothes or looks after their appearance even if they have a style which is different from what's typical in the country where they now live.

I can't imagine assuming that immigrants are less educated or automatically classless or of a lower class. In most of the schools I've taught in (both state and independent, some very multicultural), on average the immigrant parents more often came across as middle class and well-educated with high aspirations for their children.

I find the British class system so bizarre, and I’m from Pakistan!

Class was very important at university, I went to Cambridge, so some people (twats) found pondering my class a fun sport.

First generation immigrant
We shared a flat over a shop with another family until I was about 11 when we managed to rent our own property.
Dad taxi driver
Mum shop worker ‘under the counter’
I was technically homeless at 17 and sofa surfing at various friends houses
Moved to London when I was still 17 (because teenagers are really sensible )
Worked in various jobs, some legal, some definitely not legal.
Aces my A-levels and a charity that had helped me seek housing assisted with application to university and sponsored me throughout Cambridge.
I’m now an actuary, well chief risk officer and own (mortgaged) a flat in zone 1.

Class based language is quite common in the UK and on MN, people sneer about council housing or housing association housing, regular use of terms like chav etc.

I'm Asian (was of primary school age when emigrated to the UK, so have a British accent) and when I was in my early 20s, a colleague asked where I was from, when I told her, she said 'oh poor you, coming from such a poor country, you must be so relieved to be here now'. The 'where are you from' questions get really tedious.

@classmisfit people in the UK may talk about class a lot but it's red herring - there's not really a "system" that you can learn to navigate ...or at least if there's any system at all then it's a chaotic one. If you know anything about physics, hopefully that will make sense. Weather is a chaotic system too - it's difficult to predict the weather more than 3 days in advance and even for that you need a supercomputer and lots of observational data. For the same reason you could ask 100 individuals your question, get 100 different answers, spend hours analysing the results and making conclusions, yet it still won't predict how the person you meet next Tuesday will react to you. So I suggest you stop worrying about it and just get on with your life.

I grew up lower middle class in a northern town. When I moved "down south" to Guildford after university for my first job (a research assistant at a university) I felt people judged me by my northern accent. Moving to Greater London helped - nearly everyone here is from somewhere else. If I meet a first generation immigrant I assume they've come here to work, so would ask what they do and lots of other questions (got kids? ... similar ages to mine? similar attitudes to life? similar hobbies?etc) before deciding whether they were "my type" or not. That's nothing to do with Class, and everything to do with our natural tendency to feel comfortable around people we have things in common with.

@SimonJT
Incidentally, I am also a (relatively senior) actuary .

Depends where you live I've found. Where we Are in our county no one really gives a flying monkeys about "class". However back when I lived in Surrey (shudder) it was more of a noticeable thing that the more wealthy seemed to care about/be stuck up about.

[quote classmisfit]@SimonJT
Incidentally, I am also a (relatively senior) actuary .[/quote]
Ah, your working day is just as exciting as mine then 😂

@SimonJT

I find the British class system so bizarre, and I’m from Pakistan!

Class was very important at university, I went to Cambridge, so some people (twats) found pondering my class a fun sport.

First generation immigrant
We shared a flat over a shop with another family until I was about 11 when we managed to rent our own property.
Dad taxi driver
Mum shop worker ‘under the counter’
I was technically homeless at 17 and sofa surfing at various friends houses
Moved to London when I was still 17 (because teenagers are really sensible )
Worked in various jobs, some legal, some definitely not legal.
Aces my A-levels and a charity that had helped me seek housing assisted with application to university and sponsored me throughout Cambridge.
I’m now an actuary, well chief risk officer and own (mortgaged) a flat in zone 1.

Class based language is quite common in the UK and on MN, people sneer about council housing or housing association housing, regular use of terms like chav etc.

I find it hard to view children of first generation immigrants as first generation if they did their secondary here. Absolutely not trying to minimise your experience. I just s feel it’s a completely different experience compared with the people who came here in their 20s. It’s not just the work and culture, it is also the loss of friendships, extended family, those relationships that you have built over your formative years. So I feel that it impacts the first generation immigrants too much. A big chunk of their network is usually already lost if they come here in their 20s.

@Totickleamockingbird I'd have to disagree. I came over as a child and I have to agree with Lenny Henry, who says we're the children of the commonwealth, we don't belong anywhere.

I am also from Pakistan (Karachi). Went to a really crappy secondary school. I only managed to get a handle on that loss once I reached the university system. I cannot even begin to imagine how different it would have been if I had a good secondary education in science subjetcs specifically.
So it could be that I am biased.

I think education particularly relating to your job. So a doctor that comes from elsewhere I wouldn’t describe as working class. Yes they do work but they work in a profession that is notoriously difficult to access.

Generally they would live in more affluent areas and have more money to go on holidays, drive more expensive cars. Whether they chose to or not is a different.

So the markers for middle class would be well educated, higher annual income, living in more affluent area.

I'm a white American who has lived in the UK for 12 year married to a white British man. The class system still baffles me and I'm not really sure what I've signed my kids up to. The US has class but accent, weight and clothes don't come into it. It's all bases around money. American police, firefighters and nurses make a lot more money and are often upper middle class. We don't exactly have an adventurous sense of style (man in a polo shirt, khaki shorts and trainers could be absolutely anyone) so that doesn't mark anyone out. My husband cars A LOT about how our kid pronounce certain words. We have one child in private school and one in state school currently. Clearly people feel that the state school child is being hugely disadvantaged socially. It's just not something I've come across in the US.

Significantly less exciting, I'd say. I am so relieved that my contribution to the "ORSA in the time of the cholera" is limited to only a couple of tables

This fascinates me. How did your respond???

How rude and patronising of her! I hope you embarrassed her.

I do think there is sexism here aswell (and yes women can be sexist). People always assume I am more junior than I am I. Work and always assume my male deputy Is my boss.

I dress the part, am a confident communicator. But am short and look a lot younger than I am ( not In a good way!).

ah the quote did not work, the above was to @SimonJT

[quote SharonasCorona]@Totickleamockingbird I'd have to disagree. I came over as a child and I have to agree with Lenny Henry, who says we're the children of the commonwealth, we don't belong anywhere.[/quote]
That point about commonwealth countries is true in a sense. In our culture, there is this huge, ongoing impact of the British system and its mutants (read feudal lords who own nearly all of the country’s best lands; religious fanatics who keep claiming that the country was only created because of some divine intervention. Yeah, sure .).

@Eng123

Santa most countries have a class system... none are something to be proud of.

They do.. but accepting that there's a special kind of people who are above from birth and are born your rulers is very weird.

Even communist countries have a class system, there's no such thing as equality, but there's a huge difference in mentality when there's equality at birth which doesn't even exist in Britain.