First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

This fascinates me. How did your respond???
I did not respond other than "err ahh... well OK", to be honest. I am not a quick thinker in social situations like this. Instead, I tend to over-analyse after. And in this particular case I do think it came from good intentions, i.e. she genuinely wanted to offer help. I was just curious WHY had she assumed that I need help.

My parents are immigrants & because I grew up in a very diverse part of London & went to faith schools, I didn't actually have any friends who were not the offspring of immigrants until university. I don't actually remember being conscious of class until I went to university & started to notice differences. Similarly when I started work & realised how un diverse it was & that many went to private schools.

Social mobility is actually less achievable now than it was thirty years ago.

I agree the vast majority of my friends have done well for themselves & at my schools there was a lot of mixing regardless of money. I don't live far from where I grew up but the social demographic has vastly changed. A house costs from 1m plus & the area is now very white. I

Class based language is quite common in the UK and on MN, people sneer about council housing or housing association housing, regular use of terms like chav etc.

I agree with that.

I grew up lower middle class, with parents from working class backgrounds who were able to “move up” due to social mobility.

DH would be considered upper middle class, had he grown up in the UK - parents and all four grandparents went to university, all private school educated, including him & his siblings and he works in a chartered profession.

I often have to remind him that things he took for granted growing up weren’t available to me - particularly around education or extra curricular activities. He doesn’t get that we weren’t allowed to play hockey for example, as the school couldn’t afford enough hockey sticks for all of us, and it wasn’t fair on the kids whose parents couldn’t afford to buy the kit & stick etc.

He was born in a “poorer” country (although family were very privileged there) and grew up in a rich suburb of a rich town in a rich country, so has adapted very well living in our very middle class town, but I think he would struggle in the working class town I grew up in.

However I think he has adapted a lot better to life in the UK, mainly because we live in an affluent area and are friends either with other first gen immigrants or British people who have lived abroad so have experience of being immigrants themselves.

I agree with PP that it is down to stereotypes and ignorance that people make a generalisation about your education.
I'm scottish with a glaswegian accent and look very stereotypically scottish (ginger with pale complexion) and I used to go to london a lot with work. I was often mistaken for a member of the client committee (mental health issues generally from deprived areas) and patronised about how articulate my inputs were once I corrected them that I was actually part of the therapeutic team they seemed taken aback lol
I later mentioned this to an english colleague and they simply said "Scottish people down here are generally in manual jobs"

I think the working class has gone really, anyone round here who is a joiner/roofer etc mostly run their own businesses and own their own homes. I think in the past that that was the working class. Posh upper class accents (eg Prince Charles) are mocked and the posh public school kids use estuary english now - so it's hard to recognise them.
The Royal Family weren't really considered upper class, that was the older families such as Princess Diana's, who'd owned titles/land for centuries.
I would only think a first generation immigrant upper class if they'd gone to Eton. I suspect that BAME doctor doesn't quite get the respect that a white British doctor gets. Possibly because it's assumed they are only living here because of a work permit due to their profession. Not that they are British.
The Bottom Line has had two programmes about diversity in business which are interesting, on Radio 4.

@DanniArthur
I actually heard exactly the same from Irish friends.

Some of it depends on which country you are originally from. I'm from Canada, and people assume that I was brought up 'middle class' as I have a good level of education, speak three European languages, am well travelled, have good general knowledge, etc. They look at me funny when I tell them that I grew up in a caravan park and my dad worked in a mine.

I later mentioned this to an english colleague and they simply said "Scottish people down here are generally in manual jobs"

Not the Scots I know.

DH is a first generation immigrant. He's working class, but he's not British working class if that makes any sense. He tells me things about his childhood and family and life before he moved here that absolutely type him as working class, but also absolutely type him as not British. I asked him what I would be in his home country and he said "a foreigner" but then said it would depend entirely on how much money we had. In Britain class and money are linked, but I think class identity is about a lot more than money here.

One thing that stood out for me at uni was drug use. Growing up drugs were a big no no & a fast route to trouble so the vast majority of my circle stayed well clear. Got to uni & a load of home counties kids were snorting coke but I guess if they were caught it would be a slap on the wrist & no threat of potential impact on their future lives.

I suspect that BAME doctor doesn't quite get the respect that a white British doctor gets. Possibly because it's assumed they are only living here because of a work permit due to their profession. Not that they are British.
Interesting observation. I think I would agree (from my limited experience, of course). Does it mean that there is effectively a perception that they "have to work", which is oh-so-working-class?

Some of it depends on which country you are originally from.
For me it is something 95% of British people would probably struggle to point on a map, typical "third world".

Oh & if you want to see class prejudice (& borderline racism) in action go to the baby names threads

Being of the 'British working class' wasn't really about their relationship to landowners/aristocracy/royals. It was more about the relationship between the industrial labourer, a huge percent of the population at one time, and the owners of the industrial mill or coal mine etc they worked for. So more a people from urban industrial areas like the north of England, the east and west midlands, the north east and so on than the older agricultural labourer and land owner sytem

@classmisfit

Significantly less exciting, I'd say. I am so relieved that my contribution to the "ORSA in the time of the cholera" is limited to only a couple of tables

Just think when we were teenagers we thought people were like us were huge boring losers, and thats what we became 😂

I would have ended up tongue-tied too OP, though I'm not too surprised. She sounds like a neighbour I have.

I think she’s more likely to have used this knowledge if she wanted to judge your socio-economic status rather than your country of birth.

I've had Brits stand in front of me listing off the worthiness and class of immigrants by nationality. Some of them seemed to think I should take it as a compliment that they thought highly of where I was born.

The US has class but accent, weight and clothes don't come into it. It's all bases around money.

Also American, while I agree the British class system is different to the US, I disagree with this statement. Look at most US media, and accents, dialectic patterns, and styles not associated with the West or North East coasts are pegged as lower class, less well educated, and less able to take care of ourselves regardless of how much someone makes. The 'poor person with the funny accent who came into money but still has no class' is a common media joke on both sides of the Atlantic. Hell, just whether someone said Appalachia with the /ch/ or /sh/ pronunciation can change the US-view of class and intelligence.

I work with many foreign colleagues and though I can only speak to my experience with them, I believe certain markers of being UMC or upper class are universal. For context my industry was City based.

The knowledge of social norms, their comfort in work social settings, mannerisms and confidence all indicated to me that they all grew up in fairly wealthy and upper class settings.

As a result of maybe my own self selection bias, when I meet a non British person it's mostly through my children's schooling or in some work context , I do make the assumption that at the very least they are UMC like me or even upper class in their own country.

I think certain personality traits and comfort in particular social situations remain the same regardless of country of origin

ottermum3 I've sometimes wondered if those are universal traits or if those with resources can just hide the unsocial members and their ill actions more than others. I mean, there was a previous comment about drug use had me thinking that the wealthy addict and the poor addict are so often portrayed and viewed very differently.

The white working classes are the most maligned section of British society imo. It seems they are the only section of society that it is seen as acceptable to ridicule, oppress and ignore. Makes me very angry and I am a third generation immigrant.

The knowledge of social norms, their comfort in work social settings, mannerisms and confidence all indicated to me that they all grew up in fairly wealthy and upper class settings.
I am also in the City. I did notice a certain - I don't even know how to describe this - "lack of confidence", probably, amongst British colleagues with regional accents to speak up at meetings where the main presenter has a very posh accent (it is even more obvious now, in a 100% remote environment). I don't have any mental barriers preventing me from speaking up, despite having a very very heavy accent. Maybe it is perceived as showing comfort.

@SimonJT
Have never stopped thinking that and 2021 will be my year of getting out of the boredom (contingent on surviving September, of course).

The white working classes are the most maligned section of British society imo.
Yes, I also noticed this. My children are already perceived as "local" (no discernible ethnic background - white, English names and surnames), and my question is partially motivated by the desire to understand how the world is shaping around them.

I don't notice any particular class differences in my first generation immigrant friends. Class is more complicated these days than lower, middle, and upper.

But they have a variety of jobs and homes and lifestyles and accents and skin tones and ethnicities, and none of the socioeconomic factors seem to correlate with their origins; it appears to be an even mixture.

Maybe that's because if you have the resources (whether financial or mental) to come here in the first place, you are more likely to overcome systemic barriers on an individual level than someone of the same origin who was born here? So maybe in their countries of origin they might be from a higher class on average, but here they slot in in a variety of places?

But then my friends are all people who have a legal right to come here, whereas if you are e.g. a refugee and have to apply for the right to remain, presumably you're likely to end up lower class here, regardless of where you were in your original country.

So is the class here all about the money? Because then I have bad news for few of my "I as a working class" people...

When does one stops being x class and moves to y or z class?