First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

@NeedToKnow101
It wasn't my intention at all to claim that I am entitled to a preferential treatment. I actually did not have a notion of a "class" as such before I moved to the UK, not even until my children were born. Their father is probably middle-middle or upper-middle class in the local pecking order, but, unfortunately, he had better things to do with his life and is no longer present, so our children are a bit declasse in that respect. They still will have to "fit in" in a way, they are actually already expected to - looking very white English with very traditional names and surnames, so I do spend some time thinking about class-related matters and what their place in this society could be, or perceived to be.

Herriot is inappropriate? Who is saying that?

@SimonJT I learned a long time ago that my place in the UK will never change because I’m a brown immigrant, I also learned that to compare my own status where I am from to my status in the UK is essentially a thought crime for some people in the UK. Those people being snobs of course

@classmisfit You see an opportunity (for education in this case, as discussed) - you take it, nothing to do with a perception of being "superior", there are other motivations, ranging from purely financial to a genuine hunger for knowledge. What is wrong with that? Why is "knowing your place" so important? (because that's what the quote effectively boils down to).

There is something seriously wrong here - seriously. You are suggesting that my view is in line with the kind of thinking that says everyone should know their place, not aspire, etc, etc. That because I am defending UK society and questioning you that I must be someone who is of the class or background you criticise?

I am clearly wasting my time as a teacher where I work so hard to push children to achieve their potential. Where sticking my neck out to get a pupil on an open day at Oxford cost me hugely as I then was seen differently by the staff.

And I come from that area, and know they don't expect me to have attended a prestigious university either.

There is something that you want to say about white, working class people that I don't want to engage in and I am trying to highlight that the 'system' as such in British society when you engage with it as a pupil actually accommodates such wide differences in background, faith and upbringing. The cost of doing this in our health and education system means that we can't also accommodate all the
differences that exist withing home countries - it's the nature of being part of the Commonwealth.

Here are two examples that may illustrate better what I am trying to say

An exceptionally able Yr 6 pupil I taught in a state school who was trying to get into a grammar school was doing a lot of extra work independently and started to pick up on something online regarding his background. He started making derogatory comments about his mother and her caste as he had picked up that it was not seen as 'desirable' (Indian family). He really internalised this hatred about his family and as he was ambitious and very academic was under the impression that he needed to send out a different message to who he was if he wanted to get on.

I grew up near a very prestigious boys school (top 10 in country type of school) During sixth form, I worked in a local supermarket type place that lots of art students also worked in as it sold materials they could use and they got a discount. There were several other sixth pupils there with me from this very prestigious school. Very well spoken, monied boys who worked hard. Several went on to international banking, one is a politician, other senior in government. I know them, still.

This doesn't sit with the public idea of who or what the privileged/elite are but these are my experiences of them. I, too, come from a background that had certain ideas about British society but my experience growing up here and meeting these boys at 16 showed me that things as they appear on the surface are just that.

That little boy should not have had to turn to youtube and Khan Academy to get the education he needed but more importantly we need to protect him from the kind of thinking that makes him feel as though he can't be himself and aspire to university (see here another thread on Travellers).

I absolutely believed in education as the mechanism for social mobility and whilst it has become more commodified it is still the best thing we have and we all have to be vigilant against a mentality that wants to destroy that but not by buying into the very false ideas of superiority based on clothes we wear/weight/appearance, etc.

And unfortunately, that is what I am hearing on this thread.

There are two things being conflated here

I.e. there is a social queue that I and other immigrants don't see, and trying to reach for a certain social good is perceived as queue-jumping? (apologies for bluntness, but from the point of view of a complete outsider, there IS a lot of truth in the queuing stereotype)

this (the above)

and the notion that anyone who points out conventions and rules is automatically trying to hold you back.

Neither has any place in British society in my mind - of course, you have the right to progress, etc just that when you start to really progress you may find that some of the things you are fighting against are actually the very structures that are in place to protect your children or you when you are on maternity leave, etc. And, on balance the signifiers you are looking for are not recognised in the way that you think they are so don't play that game.

My experience is that I am constantly having to justify doing things a certain way that ensures the fairest system for all - but people often don't want that - they want the fairest system for them regardless of whose expense it is at ( and certainly in London we have now got the horrible situation where we are setting different groups up in competition with one another rather than working as a community as it was when I grew up - in an immigrant community in a very diverse part of London).

Those of us who see the increasing right wing nature of society and where that leaves people , particularly immigrants, and who have also had to deliver socialist inspired principles within the capitalist system we support are familiar with the underlying infrastructure - which in the UK is actually pretty phenomenal. Fairness is embedded at every stage and effort is rewarded. It takes a long time to get there and it is hard to see at times but it exists and when we focus on the surface we do not always see it and instead focus on superficialities like clothes, etc that really distract from things.

It just really frustrates me when I experience this stuff and think why am I holding back so much and working so hard to help create this world that then allows people to fleece off my efforts? British society is complex, varied and broad - the underlying structure is there so that you don't have to worry about the superficial things.

And, for the record, I am not having a go or 'telling you off' and using that language when someone disagrees with you is quite telling - you are all succeeding far more than me by the sounds of it.

.

And for the record, I am experiencing the exact same thing you mention in the European country I am in - they don't know how to 'read' me - I was told in the past to wear more make up including fake tan, etc.

Offered similar 'entry' level jobs only - not the professional level stuff I am qualified for and seriously 'aggressively put in my place in the past.

To suggest it is just a British, w/c thing is really insulting.

I think you have misread the thread (which was clear in your first post) and went on defence and now it's just got too confusing.

Can you simply tell us if you are angry here because we questioned the hierarchy, or what. Because I have no idea what you are on about.

No one suggested it's just British to have classes🤷🏻 But we are talking about class system in Britain here and how it feels to first gen immigrants here, in Britain.

@serenada
I think you are going a little bit deeper here than I intended to. It was more a "first impressions" thread, i.e how do you place foreign people you don't know well on the social / class ladder, in the absence of local class markers. I actually have never experienced anything like that from colleagues at work, friends etc - only in the situations where people are making quick snap judgments.

I admire you for your efforts to maintain fairness for all, but then you say that people are fleecing off this system - could you elaborate what you mean by that? My (again, superficial) impression was quite the opposite, i.e. the odds being seriously stacked against students from certain backgrounds.

Not playing by fair rules at university (paying other people to write their thesis when they were given a grant as they come from a disadvantaged area and had the time to study).

Using their role in one job where they are being paid specifically to work with certain people who have needs and instead using that time to run their own business.

Perpetuating stereotypes against certain groups - I'm really noticing an increase of that amongst students which frightens me.

Anti Semitism, which we know is a canary in the minefield.

Obviously these are things individuals are doing, some British, some not - I am not making a distinction there - I am just pointing out the increase I see it in it.

Re: fleecing - perhaps not the best word to use but what I meant was getting dumped on whilst I am carrying the heavy load by people who are just gliding above. It always happens, again I am not saying it is immigrants doing it necessarily just that those of us who were working in the public sector in the last 20 years did think we were working for the common good on shared principles based om meritocracy.

And thank you for being so gracious in your replies to me. I am well mannered - I just feel so strongly about this.

My parents families lost all of their money in the country they originally came from. The 'system' enabled my father to come here and work as a labourer in the 60s - work his way up, he bought a house, and we all had a good education and went into nursing, teaching, etc.

We have seen much of this system' - the very thing that supported us, erode over recent years and it means more people going for fewer resources. At the same time, those resources were not evenly distributed in the past - we found the crumbs and worked from there.

A good friend of mine is Ugandan Asian and had to leave her home in the middle of the night. She had built up her own business here and raised her son who is now a professional. Both appear very wealthy and 'monied' an would never judge on appearances (I am a scruff bag who can only afford to get coffee in the restaurants she goes to).

I am trying to say have faith in the system because the more people who engage and believe in it will then work to protect it - not this veneer of society that has been sold in the last 20 years that has no real substance but the solid, grounded, thorough undercurrent that runs thoughout and many now privileged people will protect because they know exactly what it represents.

@SchrodersImmigrant

Perhaps. I am very tired. I will read through it all later and see if I can explain better.

What stood out to me was thread that started out as you suggest but then with @maurya 's contribution veered into dangerous territory (and it is dangerous to start grandstanding from one caste position when we are working hard to educate everyon ethat they are seen as equal here - see my example of the little Yr 6 boy).
I am not angry - this is a misnomer - but I am passionate so I apologise if I have come across defensive against your experiences _ I am trying to say that at the intersection of your experiences, from all over the world, lies a conflicting underlying structure that British people are taught to protect as it is the very vehicle that enables the social mobility we are trying hard to enable all to access, regardless of whether they are Brahmin or Untouchable, Hindu or Muslim, Traveller or Sinti - Greek Cypriot or Turkish.

I will defend that right as a teacher.

@serenada
Thank you for the answers - and there is no need to apologise, I actually appreciate a passionate discussion and wasn't looking only for a chorus of approval
I obviously don't have experience of the system to the same extent that you do, as someone who was brought up in this country and a professional working in the system. I can make only very superficial and empirical observations, my own circle is quite limited - mainly immigrants and very middle-class English people through work. You probably can see how not being fluent in it gives me some low-grade anxiety. For example, my children have very different accents despite being close in age - the oldest went to a nursery attached to one of very prestigious London pre-preps, and picked up bits of "posh" accent from the father. The youngest was born after we have separated, and was absorbing English at the most affordable local childminder, and speaks with the most authentic cockney accent (which I actually consider more mellifluous, if I am honest). But I can't help noticing that strangers actually treat them differently based on how they speak. Let's say in a new playgroup / class setting, people would actually pay "active" attention to what my oldest was trying to say, even if it is something, you know, age-appropriately daft, and will try to start an "equal" conversation. Whilst my youngest would be just brushed off with some standard "oh aren't you a cutie / so clever / etc". Again, I am probably over-analysing this, but this is due to the lack of knowledge.

Your anger at @maurya seems misdirected to me @serenada.

It should be directed towards the White British doctors and teachers who profiled her as poor and poorly educated in order to dismiss concerns about her DC.

I didn’t get any sense of superiority at all, except from ridiculing the snobby UMC

I read Professor Priyamvada Gopal in the Guardian and there’s a very good interview where she talks about the Anglocentric perception of Asian women as meek and submissive, and how they attract criticism merely for being outspoken. I will try to find a link, but we’re seeing that in action on this thread, and I’d venture it’s the same irrational antipathy that Priti Patel provokes.

Rishi Sunak wears the right clothes for a UMC person in power, and went to the right sort of school, so he looks and sounds like our expectations of a person in power. A first generation Indian woman does not. Priti Patel does not.

I say “in power” but I think I probably mean “authoritative”.

@maurya had a point though. She was being treated differently because someone here placed her, as happens to many foreigners, to the much lower social bracket without knowing anything about her.

@willstarttomorrow I saw a video with a group of Scottish women talking - two Asian women, one white Muslim woman and one black woman - and the black woman said people were gobsmacked to hear her speak in a Scottish accent, like they didn't realise black people lived in Scotland. One of the Asian women said the same. At my old workplace, we used to have an Asian Scottish doctor (and he had a really sexy voice!) and I remember there was an Asian woman from Glasgow on The Apprentice one year. There are BME communities up in Scotland but people seem to see all the other British nations as being entirely white.

@breadcakebiscuits It's because Priti Patel speaks crap and was previously caught breaking the ministerial code. However because she has brown skin AND is female this behaviour is seen as a more serious crime, which it wouldn't if she white AND male e.g. Grant Shapps (or is it Michael Green today)

Re the comment about food - I'm a white Jewish Brit and my colleagues in my last job thought I was up myself because I brought a tin of Prince's mackerel into work for lunch instead of Morrison's own brand, which is what my colleague ate. They could be quite weird about food at times. I think they also thought I was up myself because I went to university and because I called one of the doctors 'apathetic'. The mackerel thing puzzled me. It's not like I brought caviare in.

@maurya had a point though. She was being treated differently because someone here placed her, as happens to many foreigners, to the much lower social bracket without knowing anything about her.

Isn't that what has happened with me, here? An assumption that I need these things explained to me from an outsiders point of view just because I have suggested perhaps it might be symptomatic of something else?

Caviar at work is quite a distinction from a branded tin like Prince's - you are right. I honestly don't know what to say to you about Morrison's because I hadn't seen them in London and don't know them.

I 'm out, guys - we are at cross purposes here and I am really tired at the moment so rather than go any further I'll call it a day.

Best of luck to you all. x

'Immigrants' can almost be used as an insult can't it.

But most of the immigrants I know are solidly MC. Most extreme example: MIL. Privately educated, lived in the most exclusive part of the capital city of her native country, spent childhood summer holidays on their country estate, can trace family back centuries to aristocratic ancestors. Came to this country after meeting FIL while studying at a world famous University. Incidentally she was telling me a story about FIL going to visit her before they got married and he'd travelled on the wrong passport and so was going to be deported. She got her family to make a few calls to the right people and the issue was sorted.

She's an extreme but e.g. when I studied my PhD I knew lots of immigrants who had come here to study and they were all from very MC families and all very educated. There's a certain section of society who are so privileged they can and do work in different countries and travel round the world. Both DH's parents have worked in multiple countries and continents, as have he and his siblings. To them it's completely normal but they'd never view themselves as 'immigrants'.

PS @classmisfir - apologies, I have just seen your post - accent is a factor unfortunately and I can believe that this happened to your children. It is bad manners on the part of the adults, though and does reflect poorly on them.

I think there are a lot of British people selling a false idea of class - I have experienced it, to in a school where they were behaving in a away I would consider different to how I behave and what I see as preferable. I just avoid those people now.

[quote PhilSwagielka]@willstarttomorrow I saw a video with a group of Scottish women talking - two Asian women, one white Muslim woman and one black woman - and the black woman said people were gobsmacked to hear her speak in a Scottish accent, like they didn't realise black people lived in Scotland. One of the Asian women said the same. At my old workplace, we used to have an Asian Scottish doctor (and he had a really sexy voice!) and I remember there was an Asian woman from Glasgow on The Apprentice one year. There are BME communities up in Scotland but people seem to see all the other British nations as being entirely white.[/quote]
I’m an Asian man, I have a Nottinghamshire accent, when people say things like “I didn’t expect you to sound like that” I often now ask why, no one has ever been willing to answer to my face.

A colleague is black, hes also German, we have had people at work voice surprise that you can be both German and not white!

Yeah, not all Germans are blond and blue-eyed! I remember the German squad in the 2014 World Cup had a black player on it, Jerome Boateng. And Leroy Sané of Man City is a black German too.

Another place where people seem surprised to find black people is Liverpool. Black Scousers exist! Not just in Toxteth, either. Craig Charles is one of the most famous ones but, using football as an example again, there's a few Everton/Liverpool players as well - Trent Alexander-Arnold springs to mind. Liverpool's had a black community for years.

At my old workplace, we used to have an Asian Scottish doctor (and he had a really sexy voice! My dental practice is Glaswegian Asian and my dentist has the most soothing voice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humza_Yousaf
Humza Yousef is the Scottish Justice Minister
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Asian

It si very hard to generalise about class and race in the UK as there are so many different groups and we are very different from the USA too. eg we have a lot of (white) relatives in Yorkshire. there are lots of Asian people there too who used to and still do work in the mills etc (and obviously better off ones too); whereas in my bit of NW London which is fairly affluent if I see someone white locally on average they are working class from the council estate near my house and if they are not white they tend to be better off (which of course is very different from much of the country and then there are parts of the country where I am from where most people are white - northumberland is 2% not white and probably 98% UK born too and if you moved to the nearest country farming village 2 generations ago you are an outsider).

i don't think we should feel it is hopeless. Working class people are finding it easier not harder to get to university now there are loans many of them never pay back and 50% not 15% of people go to university. Secondly London genuinely in many ways is a meritocracy. You will not last in any very competitive environment if you are useless even if your father is well known or you talk with a posh accent. If you are a doctor and your patients die or a lawyer and you lose your cases all the time you can be as rich as you like but you won't last in the professions.

Also the internet is a leveller, particularly for those jews and others who choose to change their names - stein to stone, Jimmy Lee instead of Chinese version etc - I am not saying people should change names but it can help and on the internet no one knows who you are - you can just do your work.

I do find how we all end up how we are very interesting. my own background is essentially white miners from NE (bit like kate Middleton's mother's family but we probably moved class a generation before her mother did).

Well, I came on here fully prepared to be wrong and apologise but with the exception of this (below) and my horrendous typing, I stand by my point.

'Certainly, @maurya you can go and shove that kind of pretentiousness nonsense where the sun don't shine. We 've progressed beyond that my father was kind of stuff here'

It is not language I would usually use and I had no intention to appear 'dog rough' as someone suggested.

but I obviously did go deeper into the issues of class disparity and opportunity than was intended by the Op's opening thread. It must have seemed as though I was disregarding peoples' experiences - something I would not intentionally do.

I think we will continue to have problems in the UK because of this very issue and it is, unfortunately, to do with power and I do feel morally obliged to defend the w/c because of the horrendous way they have been treated. That doesn't mean I would defend racist behaviour at all (hey - I grew up in the 70s in the Irish community!) rather that I have learned that it is not that clear cut and there are many good people in the w/c who have seen their culture and way of life reduced to media soundbites about the worst aspects of British life.

There are loads of black and Indian Scousers too.
One is an actress whose story was on one of those ancestry programmes and it turned out her family were friends of Gandhi.

@Ellisandra

You what now? Do people actually go around assigning individuals in their lives to ‘classes’? I am aware of the concept of class. I am interested when I read articles about topics where socio-economic class is relevant. I have never stopped to think about what class any individual in my life is - be they born in Britain or elsewhere. That’s not an attempt to be all right-on and “I don’t see class.” I wouldn’t be surprised (though I’d be ashamed) if I had subconscious class prejudices... But I can’t imagine actively giving mental energy to deciding what ‘class’ someone that I met, was.

I think you are completely normal. Class just doesn't feature in the lives on consciousnesses of most people

@Xenia Jewish actors used to do that in the old days of Hollywood, didn't they? Issur Danielovitch became Kirk Douglas, Szmuel Gelbfisz became Samuel Goldwyn, Jerome Silberman became Gene Wilder and so on.