First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

For the equivalent Indian class system read ‘caste ‘ instead of class

I'm an Antipodean and don't come from money. However I am well travelled, have been an expat in many places, have good table manners, can choose wine and hold my own in conversation. I'm not boasting but regardless of my class, I do fine at all levels here. Now it might help that I do not care about class and think I'm as good as the next person. If you think you aren't good enough, you won't be.

@silentpool

I think it is interesting that 'travel' and knowledge about wine are for, some people, markers of a certain class. It is viewing neutral things through this lens that causes the problem.

As an Australian, that is n't an issue for you and you just see them as things to learn about. When you are then in certain circles you are seen as knowledgeable about wine, etc therefore educated, of teh right class, etc.

I agree with you and think it is only an issue for those desperately trying to be something they are not and looking for markers to measure others by instead of engaging with the neutral topics. It is about presenting as being a certain class rather than being from that class.

If you think you aren't good enough, you won't be.
Maybe you are right in that I have a latent desire to "fit in" and thus am looking for some superficial markers to mimic. I don't think I do - consciously, I mean. Definitely don't know a thing about wine and not well travelled at all.

Priti Patel does not speak quite normally or right so that indicates not the same class to me. I cannot remember what she says but it always irritates me when she does and it will be because of going to a state school and her original class.

Same old @Xenia. I can never quite decide if she genuinely has the emotional intelligence of an eggbox, or if it's carefully calculated to goad under a veil of faux-naivete.

I'm Irish. I tend to be assumed to be working-class because of that, which says a lot about the people doing the perceiving, really (and that large numbers of people, including those with strong, working-class regional accents, genuinely believe that they don't 'have an accent'.)

People were continually vociferously incredulous that the reason I came to the UK was to study at Oxford, particularly that I was (quite happily) at one of the traditionally very public-school/aristocratic colleges.

In terms of exhibiting anti-Irish prejudice, the worst social class in my experience has been the English lower-middle-class, which has over-represented itself in terms of comments on 'brogue', hilarious banter about the IRA, Catholicism, lack of contraception, and general backwardness.

Shortly afterwards, the same people would often announce proudly, as if they had done something extremely clever, that they had just applied for an Irish passport, and would wait for an assurance from me that Irish people would feel very, very lucky to share a passport with them.

'brogue', hilarious banter about the IRA, Catholicism, lack of contraception, and general backwardness.

Sounds more like the Irish urban middle class talking about culchies to me.

@Flaxmeadow I think also part of the problem is that a lot of activism these days, especially online, is informed by American political discourse, especially where race is concerned. Which isn't always applicable to other countries. And I find some of the more academic parts of activism hard to get my head round, like the concept of referring to black people as 'bodies'.

Should the left just abandon anti-racist activism/feminism/disability rights etc. and just focus on class?

@Procne Are you from Belfast at all? I have a friend from there and she gets that crap too, and she's middle-class. Back home she'd be considered posh but here, people are confused by her accent and she's a bit self-conscious about being hard to understand (she isn't, not to me anyway).

This is really interesting for me, because I always assumed I was working class but then looked back at my childhood and thought maybe we were lower-middle class, then I went to uni and went "oh no, I really am working class". It's really complex for so many reasons, as there are also subtle 'levels' within each class and in the in-between parts of those levels families can differ. E.g. I'm more working class but my auntie's family is firmly middle class. My dad is working class but my mam and sister are just about lower-middle class. I'm hyper aware of it now, and although I don't consciously 'assign' classes to others, it's generally fairly apparent. That being said, it doesn't really mean anything to me, I just find it interesting.

I think because British born people automatically see people through this lens that is based on accent, socio-economics, birth place, etc. their brains struggle to 'place' first gen immigrants and prefer to stick them in a lower class to themselves to appease their biases and stereotypes.

@PhilSwagielka

informed by American political discourse, especially where race is concerned

Spot on and particularly pertinent across the Irish/Uk - Irish/US axis

@Owleyes16

I think because British born people automatically see people through this lens that is based on accent, socio-economics, birth place, etc. their brains struggle to 'place' first gen immigrants and prefer to stick them in a lower class to themselves to appease their biases and stereotypes.

Yes - I also think it is to do with the perception of how developed a country is and whether it's infrastructure is something we are working towards or against - hence why Irish regardless of background (and middle class Irish are closer to lower middle class /working class English when you take into account the full breadth of wealth in the country) as Ireland was until recently agrarian and didn't have the industrial revolution on its soil severing the link between land and people in the way England did.

That, I think, shapes the perception. It's the same with the Poles.

Oh G-d, do not get me fucking started on Irish Americans who support the IRA and go on about how they get drunk all the time because they're Irish, lol so wacky. And can't understand why calling a cocktail an Irish Car Bomb might be a teeny bit offensive to actual NI people.

It's hard to explain, but in the UK I feel like there are 'lesser' types of white people and the Irish are among them, as are Jews and Eastern Europeans. I've seen some nasty anti-Irish sentiment coming out because of Brexit and 'oh fuck the Irish, who cares about them' and ignorance about the political situation over in NI.

No, @PhilSwagielka, opposite end of the country.

hence why Irish regardless of background (and middle class Irish are closer to lower middle class /working class English when you take into account the full breadth of wealth in the country).

What are you basing this statement on -- purely on income?

there are 'lesser' types of white people and the Irish are among them, as are Jews and Eastern Europeans

See, I think that culturally at a certain point we veer off from the Anglican norm and that is a product and a consequence of different religious/national heritage. (as they usually go hand in hand).

Eastern Europeans and Irish not solely but significantly Catholic and Judaism is seen as an Orthodox religion so both are more traditional in aspects to British culture. I don't think kso much in terms of anti Cathoilcism in the UK but rather pro Anglican as so much of the Commonwealth is Anglican against a background of other faiths.

As I keep wanging on, I'm a farmer and it doesn't matter a stuff what accent you have. I'm grateful to belong to such a fantastic group of people. There are public/ state school boys and girls, different incomes, sizes of farms, people from every region and country but we all shovel the same shit. People with airs and graces are soon brought down to earth. The wee man with hardly any teeth and strong accent who is a multi millionaire is treated with respect.

@Procne Ah, OK. Just when you mentioned people going 'lol IRA' at you, I wondered if you were Northern Irish, but then some people probably can't tell the difference between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland and think all of Ireland = bombs.

I don't get why so many English people have this weird idea that the Irish/Scots are backward.

@serenada I wonder how much subconscious anti-Catholic sentiment is still a thing here.

@Procne

hence why Irish regardless of background (and middle class Irish are closer to lower middle class /working class English when you take into account the full breadth of wealth in the country).

What are you basing this statement on -- purely on income?

Not at all. Ireland is a Republic - the UK kept its monarchy, Lords, Earls, Baronets, etc. We have a far broader range in society because of this whereas nearly all Republics across Europe standardized out that aspect - the wealth was consolidated out of familial hands into te State or public wealth. If you attended Oxford, you would have caught a glimpse of this, particularly at one of the very trad colleges. In addition, Ireland is a very young country in many ways - in terms of the Free State.

Income is very little to do with it. Assets are different.

@PhilSwagielka

Yes, I don't think it has gone away ever but I do find that the more I listen to it the more I discover it is not actually anti-Catholicism more anti -what-I -think-Catholicism-is-from-a-place-of-complete-ignorance-or-the-internet or virtue signalling from those who think it will score them points in intellectual circles but still grovel to the priest when they want a school place.

I Hate the class system but we are all guilty of wanting to pigeonhole people no matter where they come from.

Without realising it or wanting to I slot people I meet into a recognisable strata of society. It doesn't mean I look up or down on people, or i view them as less than me as human beings. I'm nice to everyone I meet unless they are unpleasant people to me, but I do feel more comfortable with people of the same age, marital status and job qualifications as me.

I had no idea how important class system was until I moved to the UK started reading MN! I wouldn't normally discuss class with friends, but I have started noticing how you are automatically identified as belonging to WC or MC.

Generally, if you have an accent people tend to assume a lot about what you are doing in your life (a woman asked me if I had moved here to claim benefits!), so I actually get what you are saying. Lots of stereotyping, although that is common in every culture. Focusing on class is very British.

Fascinating thread. I am from a developing country and come from quite a well off family. Growing up I had no idea of class or not belonging somewhere, I could go where I wanted and talked to whoever. I came over here and started from scratch, my parents didn't and still don't help me financially. I've completed a PhD in medical science at a Russell Group Uni, self funding it with 3 jobs - and even now, 10 years later people do not know where to place me. I think I even confuse my friends. I think my accent counts against me and my teeth and general looks for me - I am not pretty but any stretch of the imagination, just have good teeth and a strong bone structure. I just hope and pray my DCs don't experience this and can feel like they belong anywhere and can do anything, that sense of entitlement a lot of my colleagues seem to have.

I’m constantly ‘profiled’ on the basis of my accent. I’m from the NW netherworld in between Liverpool and Manchester and without the pronounced accent of either place, but enough for the RP private school brigade to assume I’m working class, first in my family to go to university, know nothing about art, nor food that isn’t meat and two veg etc.

In fact both my parents and all four of my grandparents went to university, and I was taken to art exhibitions, foreign countries etc long before I could walk. I was taught elocution and public speaking at school and several of my friends conspicuously modified their accents as a result but as one of the posh kids I never did. It wasn’t until I met actual posh people at university that I realised just the way I spoke was enough to set some people’s teeth on edge.

I try not to be a snob but I probably am one subconsciously. I do hate the word 'chav' though. It sounds so sneery.

I have strong accent and issue with some pronunciation so people assume I am stupid. I had people talk slowly to me even after they knew I am fluent, just the accent thing. I guess they put me in a working class?

Also, what we don't have is calling people by their preferred political party as an insult😂 We obviously moan about how some people vote, but I am now know as that Tory because I said I didn't like Corbyn... Conservatives are not my preferred political party. 🤷🏻