First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

If it was only about money, it would be pretty easy to understand. But it isn't. It's a lot more subtle than that. Family money, education of previous generation/s, house, which school you went to, your surname.

Other countries have more 'classes', so they'll have the equivalent to the working class, middle class, but also have something called the 'intellectual' class which are other professionals such as writers, journalists, university lecturers, artists, etc. I think it makes sense to have such a category as it's mostly based on level of education and creativity/knowledge.

I've been in the UK for 20+ years and there are still some aspects of the class system that I don't get.

@classmisfit

The knowledge of social norms, their comfort in work social settings, mannerisms and confidence all indicated to me that they all grew up in fairly wealthy and upper class settings. I am also in the City. I did notice a certain - I don't even know how to describe this - "lack of confidence", probably, amongst British colleagues with regional accents to speak up at meetings where the main presenter has a very posh accent (it is even more obvious now, in a 100% remote environment). I don't have any mental barriers preventing me from speaking up, despite having a very very heavy accent. Maybe it is perceived as showing comfort.

Everyone has a regional accent.

You go get the class system abroad too.

Foreigners aren't subject to the same level of class scrutiny as local born Britons, however there are markers and tells ... and I find that a not surprising number of British people do ask questions in an attempt to classify you anyway.

This may be quite irrelevant to you situation as by the sounds of things you were very reticent about discussing the issues around play dates/childcare but my experience of my first gen Polish & French friends is that they often communicate things in a far more direct/blunt manner that MC/UC would expect but far more similarly to how it might be communicated by WC.

Santa. I agree an I inherited class is apauling but it's by no means solely British. Indian culture, German culture and Japanese culture all exhibit these traits. I actually think that British class is becoming irelivant. Equality of opportunity may be plateauing but I think that is due in the main to self serving politicians - just look at Brexit, this will widen inequality massively and it was manipulated for the personal gain of the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg. The joke is he sold it to the disenfranchised and is the apitomy of the class system!

@classmisfit

Was your new acquaintance middle class or working class? I would say middle class, but I don't navigate the class system with confidence, to be honest. I often confuse "money" with "class" here.

*I often confuse "money" with "class" here.

So do most people who think they are middle class.

@RedRumTheHorse

I later mentioned this to an english colleague and they simply said "Scottish people down here are generally in manual jobs"

Not the Scots I know.

Many Scots who have been to English dominated universities and work in professions in London have anglicised their accent and word use in a way tradespeople in London haven’t.

Hell, just whether someone said Appalachia with the /ch/ or /sh/ pronunciation can change the US-view of class and intelligence.

@BiBabbles, I'm dying to know the answer to this! I've only ever heard it pronounced /sh/ so I want to know if that makes me a a posho or a hick!

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

This may be quite irrelevant to you situation as by the sounds of things you were very reticent about discussing the issues around play dates/childcare but my experience of my first gen Polish & French friends is that they often communicate things in a far more direct/blunt manner that MC/UC would expect but far more similarly to how it might be communicated by WC.

I don't think that's particularly a class thing. More British in general from my experience. Everyone is just trying not to insult or similar so hard it gets bit ridiculous sometimes

@terracottapot
I do not have any aspirations myself to fit in with any class description, to be honest. I am just not sensitive enough to the less obvious British class markers.

@Hingeandbracket
That's true, I meant a discernible accent as opposed to RP.

I later mentioned this to an english colleague and they simply said "Scottish people down here are generally in manual jobs" They were having you on. DH and I are Scottish and we have lived on and off in England for over 30 years. A lot of people are disconcerted because they can't 'place' us I think.

I definitely think that Brits do unconsciously 'place' someone they have just met, its ingrained because the class system used to be a lot more rigid than now. You are right, it can be something very superficial, for me I probably notice speech and clothes. One actual advantage I think that recent immigrants may have here is that because no one can immediately do the unconscious 'placing' in a class, they may be able to be more socially mobile than people born here.

This for me too. 1st gen immigrant from a mixed Commonwealth background. One of my fears for my (British-born) DD is that she is caught in the class web in a way that her (also foreign) father and I are not. I don’t feel constrained by the class system in the way that some local friends feel they are.

I have also had a few odd moments when I find myself somehow fitting in in ways I didn’t anticipate. For example, after 5 years in this country I realised that all my close friends were Northern - it wasn’t a discernible category for me and yet somehow that’s where I found myself, in a crowd of Northerners in London. Or, currently, when everyone I meet thinks I’m Irish. (I’m not.) Or when I pointedly ask the awkward question that everyone else is thinking and failing to ask, and I feel the only reason I can do that is because I’m foreign and it’s therefore excusable. (See also: eating the last doughnut/sandwich/breadstick rather than eyeing it up for the rest of time.) It does something to how I perceive money too - for example, we’re wealthy and I get a kick out of driving an ancient car. Not sure whether that’s “all the seriously wealthy people drive bangers” or “I’d rather people underestimate my wealth”, or something else. Certainly something about being perceived as different from how I am.

Anyway - it’s fascinating .

@EssentialHummus

where are you from, then?

@derxa

Do you have (strong) Scottish accents?

serenada I know that on Mumsnet it’s sometimes seen as outing to reveal that your DH likes cycling but, genuinely, my background is outing. I’m very mixed. Broadly Commonwealth. A few other places too. I have a lot of passports .

@EssentialHummus

Understood!

Do you have (strong) Scottish accents?
How long is a piece of string? Depends what you mean. For me 'strong' means a clear indicator of where you come from or what class you belong to or even your religion.

Do you mean would we pass as Scottish newsreaders. Probably.

@Derxa could you tell someone's religion by their regional accent?

@Derxa could you tell someone's religion by their regional accent? I could tell the difference between a Protestant and a Catholic if they're Glaswegian

@Derxa wow. So, the difference is in pronunciation or the expressions used?

It's all a bunch of stereotypes and is a bit of a horrible way to look at people though

Curiosity you say that and then a couple of sentences later you write
But she confirmed it once she started talking about 'Country homes', 'Marrying well', 'Private school', 'Mummy and Daddy' etc

If that’s not stereotyping then I don’t know what is.

Even communist countries have a class system, there's no such thing as equality, but there's a huge difference in mentality when there's equality at birth which doesn't even exist in Britain

Santa I very much doubt the children of say Erich Honecker or Stalin had equality of birth with the children of say blue collar ship workers in Rostock or peasant farmers in rural Russia.

Even communist countries have a class system

Well yes. How else did they know who can and can't go to uni.