First generation immigrants vs British class system

[classmisfit]

I am starting this thread simply out of interest, I am not outraged, hurt or looking to provoke a bun fight. Lighthearted to an extent, but I really want to hear genuine opinions.
For the native British mumsnetters, do you have an opinion about how your non-native friends and acquaintances fit within the Great British Class System? First generation immigrants, I mean. If yes, are there any external "markers" you are paying attention to, in the absence of the usual accent / went to private school / second countryside home etc.? What are they (even if very shallow and superficial?) What they wear / what they drive / where they live / fluency in English / the school their children attend?

My curiousity is triggered by yesterday's conversation with a (relatively new, a year or so) acquaintance who automatically assumed that I am uneducated and unemployed (and was suggesting "ways out" for me, completely uninvited). She was probably just trying to be kind and helpful, but it felt a bit patronising from my side. And, analysing some encounters over years, it wasn't the first occasion. So it made me think whether I am sending any specific vibes?

Just to clarify, I am not saying that is how it should be. Going to a school like Eton and getting set up for life is not how it should really be. The growing divide between the poor and rich is a bigger threat to this world than probably any other thing.
So I beleive we truly need a system which helps to overcome this divide and spreads ‘luck’ to the unprivileged classes too.

Younger generation I teach do not understand the class system at all
They understand rich poor which has nothing to do with class
Thankfully class is too mudfled these days with social mobility and. Mixed class / race relationships
Also fortunes and classy behaviour can come and go with jobs addiction etc

I have noticed an assumption that immigrants had no class before they came here. A tendency to homogenise all people from a particular country. It may be due to the fact that many new arrivals have to start again and work their way up. But there are many cases where well-to-do migrants have not had to do that. If you are black, whether 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation there will always be an assumption that you are working class or came from a working class background, regardless of your flawless RP.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Rishi Sunak isn't a first gen immigrant though.

Yeah that is sort of the whole point, isn’t it? His story is a classic example of really smart, first generation immigrant coming into a new country, decoding the local society’s norms (unfortunate as they are) and then playing by those rules! That is the whole point. You are highly likely to receive a Fulbright fellowship if you are a head boy in Eton but are from a family of first generation immigrants. You are highly likely to meet a really wealthy future spouse (whose family has all the right connections) if you got the Fulbright and got to that prestigious US school. Then you are automatically highly likely to become a finance minister if you have all that behind you to make things work for you. 🤷🏻‍♀️

The acquaintance of the poster here was a bit rude which will show her class.
I don't think it was on purpose. The back story is that she was quite CF about playdates between our children which have pretty much turned to part-time childcare recently. I invited her for a cup of tea and was preparing myself for a tough discussion (I am a coward as you can see, trying to sweeten the message with some cake ), but she disarmed me first by suggesting that I am so natural with the children and haven’t I considered an apprenticeship at the nursery after my children grow up - she'd gladly write me a glowing personal reference. So it came with good intentions, but I was a bit disoriented. And now obviously angry at myself that I did not discuss the topic I originally intended to!

I think the traditional class system is something people think about less and less these days. It's part of past British culture, and largely irrelevant in modern society. Which is a good thing. But we need to recognize that some immigrant cultures bring their own class systems with them, which are often more rigid and may point more of a spotlight on the British class system.

A truly equal and classless society is one in which everyone takes responsibility both for themselves and for others in society as a whole. Where we understand that people are different and may have learned different social norms. Where there is neither upwards nor downwards snobbery.

@nitsandwormsdodger

Younger generation I teach do not understand the class system at all They understand rich poor which has nothing to do with class Thankfully class is too mudfled these days with social mobility and. Mixed class / race relationships Also fortunes and classy behaviour can come and go with jobs addiction etc

I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism. Social mobility is actually less achievable now than it was thirty years ago.

I teach university students. They certainly come up against the class system when it comes to things like internships. Many’s the time I’ve seen someone lazy languish at the bottom of the cohort academically and yet waltz into a prestigious placement because of their background. I actually think it’s getting worse.

I definitely think that Brits do unconsciously 'place' someone they have just met, its ingrained because the class system used to be a lot more rigid than now. You are right, it can be something very superficial, for me I probably notice speech and clothes. One actual advantage I think that recent immigrants may have here is that because no one can immediately do the unconscious 'placing' in a class, they may be able to be more socially mobile than people born here. The best way to achieve that is probably via how you dress. Superficial, as you said OP !

I think it's the same no? Education, profession, family background etc etc. There are class systems in every country not just the UK, and it's not going away any time soon. And the younger generation are very aware of it too.

@classmisfit

The acquaintance of the poster here was a bit rude which will show her class. I don't think it was on purpose. The back story is that she was quite CF about playdates between our children which have pretty much turned to part-time childcare recently. I invited her for a cup of tea and was preparing myself for a tough discussion (I am a coward as you can see, trying to sweeten the message with some cake ), but she disarmed me first by suggesting that I am so natural with the children and haven’t I considered an apprenticeship at the nursery after my children grow up - she'd gladly write me a glowing personal reference. So it came with good intentions, but I was a bit disoriented. And now obviously angry at myself that I did not discuss the topic I originally intended to!

You can probably already see how this unconscious bias has lost you precious time and money, not to mention energy (unpaid childcare provider for this lady! How many hours?). This is a great example of unconscious bias: she simply thought you had nothing better to do anyway.

Was your new acquaintance middle class or working class?
I would say middle class, but I don't navigate the class system with confidence, to be honest. I often confuse "money" with "class" here.

’m afraid I don’t share your optimism. Social mobility is actually less achievable now than it was thirty years ago. I teach university students. They certainly come up against the class system when it comes to things like internships. Many’s the time I’ve seen someone lazy languish at the bottom of the cohort academically and yet waltz into a prestigious placement because of their background. I actually think it’s getting worse.
This x 1000!
The divide is growing fast. I have also seen many examples of people landing great roles despite having less than mediocre talent and aptitude for the job.
I am reading these days Robert Reich’s The System. It’s a great book with some eye-opening examples of how previledge cultivates previledge, at the cost of irreparable damage to society.

Younger generation I teach do not understand the class system at all

This is partly because many of the reminders of being from the working class have been dismantled. The pit head gears have been removed, the old textile mills torn down or turned into offices and apartments. Industry gone. Unionised solidarity gone. For good or bad. Sad really just how much so many young people have been forced forget their heritage in just one or two generations

They understand rich poor which has nothing to do with class

Rich/poor has everything to do with class and always did

@classmisfit

I think it’s to do with appearances mostly. If you are well-dressed, you will be treated differently (not one experience, many instances). Yeah, I think this might be a major component. I am generally quite scruffy/unkempt and a bit overweight. I mean, it must be something very superficial, I am just trying to narrow it down to what it could be.

There you should have it, You’re overweight. You are much more likely to be treated as working class.

Rich/poor has everything to do with class and always did
So true.
Again using Rishi Sunak or Priti Patel as an example. Both came from families with very strong financial security. Both could focus on what they wanted to be, without having to worry about anything else. Both were exceptionally talented probably. But both got the right environment and right security to free their minds and to give them the previledge to try new things. Rishi Sunak has nothing to lose if he fails as a minister.

You can probably already see how this unconscious bias has lost you precious time and money, not to mention energy (unpaid childcare provider for this lady! How many hours?).
It wasn't that bad, I just absolutely did not like the direction it started developing in. The last playdate somehow turned into a full-day stay with an extra-late pickup, and I really struggled to WFH with double the number of children to entertain all day. Yes, I was probably a bit offended that she assumed that I have nothing better to do (not that this would be OK had I been a SAHM). But the children are friends and play well together, so it was not a massive chore as such.

I don’t care where anyone comes from as long as they pay their way, and can speak at least some English, with a view to learning more

It does frustrate me that so much money is spent on translated materials and translators in the nhs, police etc when it’s not abroad. There is you don’t speak the language you pay for the translator

I would say middle class, but I don't navigate the class system with confidence, to be honest. I often confuse "money" with "class" here

The "native" working class have lost touch with their working class roots and heritage and so its hard for them to place themselves in any context. This confusion then extends to others

One of the very worse aspects of class at the moment is the way the working class are maligned by middle class progressive lefties, who see them, wrongly, as 'thick, racist, gammon, alcoholics' etc but ironically they will also say to you that class does not exist anymore

There you should have it, You’re overweight. You are much more likely to be treated as working class.
Interesting. Where I come from, weight is definitely not perceived as being correlated with class at all. Not that there are no other "general health" markers, for example - if I try to dissect it - "visible" dental health would be a very strong indicator.

I'm white and middle aged, I live in an ex local authority house with many still in council hands. We had a new neighbour move in over 2 years ago. For years they were very frosty. Recently relations melted greatly. I work in a professional technical I industry and am always very well attired. However, for two years my new niegbours had only ever seen me in Jean's covered in muck and filth from renovating our home. Odd that the recent thawing coincided with a change of routine where we saw each other on the way to work! The thing is we get on well and although I consider similar judgments baseless I guess it's just in some people's nature to have a fixed idea of class. I consider myself to be working class - because i work and i originate from a trade background. Others place me as middle class as I work in an office based profession. Again its a question of viewpoint. There are certainly differences between the opportunities that some have compared to others, having explored these opportunities does this make them better than me? If better is valuable then, yes. If better means biologically superior then no.

WHITE working-class, you mean. No-one says that about black or Asian working-class people.

Also, where do low-paid admin jobs/pink collar jobs fit in with the class structure? In the olden days if you did a labouring/manufacturing job you were working-class, but nowadays you've got people who are working in jobs like telesales or low-paid admin jobs in places like the NHS. The world of work has changed a lot since Karl Marx's time.

(Incidentally, one of the biggest demographics for alcoholism? Middle-class, middle-aged women. I'm not making this up.)

You’re overweight. You are much more likely to be treated as working class

This along with your being good with children and being willing to look after other people's will have out you firmly in the working class category in her mind. Rich, well off women rarely fit either of these categories. They see themsleves as too busy for children and too disciplined to gain weight .

In my experience, working class parents are usually warmer and more accepting of their children ( notwithstanding that they are often accused of being bad parents ) which is not considered ' good for them'. After all a child needs constant correction and ' improvement'

I say this as a second generation immigration (my parents were first generation but I was born here) whose parents are firmly working class. I have however gone to university and have a different life to my parents . I do tend to make closer friends with people who are either first or second generation immigrants , regardless.of where they are from as I ( usually) tend to feel more of an affinity with their upbringing. This isn't a conscious thing . I have just noticed I generally tend to relax.more and feel less like an alien with people who are not from families who have been in this country for generations. There are always exceptions of course but this is what I have noticed about myself and who I gravitate to

Also @Flaxmeadow, I don't think socialists or communists would agree that class no longer exists. Quite the opposite. I mean, most of their ideology is based around class.

Punctuation I still struggle with!

Does she actually realise you are working from home? Sounds like she thinks you don’t really have a job, and she is either trying to help you, or trying to have a dig at you implying you should get one. This would also explain why she thinks her kids can stay at yours all day.

Given that she knows where you live, how many bedrooms, whether you own or rent, what type of car you own, and how you live as a family, and your fluency in English, I think she’s more likely to have used this knowledge if she wanted to judge your socio-economic status rather than your country of birth.