Grown men who can't drive

[madcatladyforever]

AIBU or what! Just had a row with my DS who is not talking to me because he can't drive at 40 years old. There is no good reason why not, he's done all the lessons just can't be bothered to take the test.
His wife ferries him about everywhere despite the fact she's in very poor health and shouldn't even be on the road in my opinion.
He wanted me to collect him for the weekend a 7 hour round trip and I said no, I have slipped discs and I'm on tramadol, I can't drive for 7 hours.
I don't see why we should be unpaid chauffeurs all the time and I'm not doing it any more.
Not being able to drive completely limits their lives, they can't live in a rural area which they want to do, he can only take a job there is public transport too and he can't drive to any big store out of town and pick up furniture or tools or whatever.
It is driving me mad and I said to his wife, stop ferrying him about, he needs to get his license. What happens if you have to go into hospital - who is going to drive you there and back.
Now he is furious with me for "interfering" but if your mother can't say it who can.
I get the test is scary but if we never did anything because we were nervous we'd never achieve anything in our lives.

"I think if someone can't drive it implies a degree of helplessness I find deeply unattractive."

Story time! My (clever, resourceful, independent, etc) driver father had to take his car out of town yesterday for a repair and leave it overnight. Luckily (stupid, immature, malingering, helpless) non driver me worked in this particular place thanks to the marvel of public transport and spent much of Tuesday telling him what bus to get, where to get it from, numbers of buses, etc. He has a smartphone and I told him if he was unsure to go onto the bus company's website and check their journey planner.

He phoned me again yesterday at the bus stop to go through ALL the information again. Despite being umpteen ways he could have checked for himself if he'd thought about it for a second. But no, he's so used to the car that he literally has no idea how to use public transport. Now that to me is "helpless"...

@Rewis

Until you drive you don’t realise what you are missing out on. You will never know the freedom it gives you.

But then you'd also need a car. It's an expensive device to keep just to have the option to drive.

Why would you need to own a car? You could hire them when necessary and having a licence opens up your employment options - some jobs come with a company vehicle either as a perk or if the job involves a lot of travel.

@StillCoughingandLaughing

I think there is a very strong argument for teaching driving at school/college. There are so many driving jobs out there and also jobs that you need to be able to drive to either get to or do. Driving lessons are so expensive, if poorer children just can't afford to do it it's yet another way they are disadvantaged.

I do actually agree this would be a good idea. I would still have been absolutely terrible at it, but I could have found out for free.

I agree. If it was taught/examined in a school/college environment, it would be a lot cheaper than if it was all done via private tutors/exam centres etc. Economies of scale. Far cheaper to teach the theory in classrooms to groups instead of an instructor teaching people one at a time. Same with driving tuition -all that wasted time when the instructor is driving around between pupils from different sides of town when it would be far more efficient from a centralised hub such as a school or college. Same with vehicle purchase/hire, maintenance etc etc. It's very inefficient with lots of different "one man bands" and the hourly rate could be halved or reduced even further with economies of scale. After all, private tuition is often a similar rate, i.e. £30 per hour or so, but your Maths teacher in a school doesn't get £30 per hour as their wage - for the same reasons!

I’d prefer that money spent on expanding public transport and active travel options that more people would be able to use at all points in their life.

I agree. Even with the supposed economies of scale suggested above, we should be enabling more people to travel in ways that are better for the environment, not enabling more driving. If we invested in protected cycle ways and public transport, we'd have active travel for life. There are many disabilities that can prevent you from driving that don't prevent you from using public transport or from cycling - and before anyone starts, yes, cycling is often a mobility aid for someone with disabilities.

You'd then have travel for life. Children and the elderly would be catered for. Driving should be a privilege for those few who are capable, not a right for everyone. And by 'capable' I don't mean 'can afford', I mean have the co-ordination, judgement of speed and distance and empathy so that they can be considerate around other road users. Plus understanding traffic flow so that they know higher maximum speeds don't = higher average speeds.

Don't just enable the most problematic form of transport we have at a time of climate emergency - have the will and imagination to change the way we travel.

I mean have the co-ordination, judgement of speed and distance and empathy so that they can be considerate around other road users

So basically most people

The majority of drivers admit to speeding, even in 30mph and 20mph zones. If you can't follow a very basic law, you shouldn't be driving. IME as a cyclist and horse rider, a very sizeable minority, probably more like a majority, of car drivers are nothing like as skilled as they should be, given they are in charge of large, dangerous machinery.

But driving isn't just for pleasure/travel is it? Like I say, what about all the jobs that require their employees to drive? By not being able to drive, you're drastically cutting down employment options too!

And, improving public transport everywhere outside the major towns & cities is economically impossible. It's nonsensical to provide comprehensive buses 24/7 in less densely populated areas. It's economies of scale again. If there are enough people to justify a service, then by all means, provide the service. But if there aren't, then other options are needed, like cars!

I didn’t have to rely on public transport and could carry on my life as normal.

But not everyone’s normal is the same. I work in a city centre building five minutes’ walk from two Tube lines. Add on an extra ten minutes and you can walk from a further Tube line or a mainline station - and that’s before you even consider buses. The building has almost no dedicated parking and street parking is non-existent - and if you can find a space, you’ll have had to pay a congestion charge for the privilege of using it. A car would have been useless for me in terms of carrying on as normal.

And, improving public transport everywhere outside the major towns & cities is economically impossible.

Really? Really it is 'economically impossible' to, say, improve bus routes in rural areas, but it's totally economically feasible to spend school time teaching children how to drive? Have you costed this out yourself?

Would it not make a bit more sense to make public transport and active travel more feasible options outside major towns and cities, as it already is in lots of them, so that those of us who can't drive can still live there? I live in quite a small town, I don't need to drive here. But my dad has moved to a small town where you really do need to drive to get about, due to local bus services being cut and the local train line being closed, and I don't know how on earth that's going to work once he's too old to safely manage driving.

@StillCoughingandLaughing

I didn’t have to rely on public transport and could carry on my life as normal.

But not everyone’s normal is the same. I work in a city centre building five minutes’ walk from two Tube lines. Add on an extra ten minutes and you can walk from a further Tube line or a mainline station - and that’s before you even consider buses. The building has almost no dedicated parking and street parking is non-existent - and if you can find a space, you’ll have had to pay a congestion charge for the privilege of using it. A car would have been useless for me in terms of carrying on as normal.

The majority of people don't live/work close to tube lines though do they? Those who live in cities with good P/T maybe have less need to learn to drive, but the majority who don't have a much higher need to learn to drive.

Someone living in a town with crap expensive P/T has very different needs to someone living in London where P/T is cheap and plentiful.

And, improving public transport everywhere outside the major towns & cities is economically impossible. It's nonsensical to provide comprehensive buses 24/7 in less densely populated areas. It's economies of scale again. If there are enough people to justify a service, then by all means, provide the service. But if there aren't, then other options are needed, like cars!

And the people who live in those areas need to drive and do so. If you live in a major city, it’s simplicity itself not to drive. In fact I’d question the sanity of anyone who owns a car in London where driving just isn’t necessary at all.

It’s “crap towns” that should be strengthening their transport infrastructure. Obviously it’s not practical to have public transport serving someone who lives in a cottage halfway up a mountain miles from the nearest other home, but towns should have at least basic functional public transport systems. There’s a huge gap between major cities with great PT and super-rural areas with none.

Like I say, what about all the jobs that require their employees to drive? By not being able to drive, you're drastically cutting down employment options too!

Depends on the person. I can’t imagine any job I might want or be qualified for that requires driving. When I think of jobs that require driving I can only think of delivery, sales, minimum wage, or rural-type jobs. Many high paying jobs are either city based and/or provide transport. Okay if you’re a 17 year old school leaver living somewhere rural-ish and need any job it’d certainly increase your employment options, but not everyone is in that situation.

I think there is a very strong argument for teaching driving at school/college. There are so many driving jobs out there and also jobs that you need to be able to drive to either get to or do. Driving lessons are so expensive, if poorer children just can't afford to do it it's yet another way they are disadvantaged.

I agree it should be part of mainstream education. It is in some countries isn't it?

@blurpityblurp so narrow minded on the job front, so many jobs require you to drive than delivery drivers 😂 I work in property development of our business, we have to visit many sites in a day, it would be impossible without a car. What takes 10 mins to travel in a car would take you an hour on a bus.

I hope everyone who doesn’t drive appreciate whenever they get a lift or want something picked up or delivered, help with moving or taking things to the tip. How much having a car costs, the effort gone into passing your test, driving sometimes in stressful situations.

And looking on down minimal paid jobs, without these people working through the pandemic you wouldn’t have had your shopping delivered and would’ve had to carry it on the bus or the tube.

But driving isn't just for pleasure/travel is it? Like I say, what about all the jobs that require their employees to drive? By not being able to drive, you're drastically cutting down employment options too!

There really aren’t that many jobs that require a driving licence - and even less that I want. There might be certain companies who panic you won’t be able to get to the office without one, but rarely do you actually need to drive to do the job.

Anyway, don’t we all limit our employment options in some way? A Science degree would be no use if the industry I work in; nor would my English degree in other industries. Train to be a plumber and you can be a plumber and you’ll always work, but it’s not exactly a transferable skill.

I hope everyone who doesn’t drive appreciate whenever they get a lift or want something picked up or delivered, help with moving or taking things to the tip.

I don’t rely on my friends with cars to do this for me. I’m an independent adult. Who should I be ‘appreciating’ here, Ikea’s delivery service? They charge for that, they don’t do it as a favour!

If you personally find yourself surrounded with non-drivers who rely on you to do things for them and you don’t like it, just say ‘no’?

@Alex50 I don't get lifts. If I want something getting picked up or delivered i use public transport, or if it's something large I pay a man/woman with a van to do it. I paid a local man with a van to help me move house recently.

"I hope everyone who doesn’t drive appreciate whenever they get a lift or want something picked up or delivered, help with moving or taking things to the tip. How much having a car costs, the effort gone into passing your test, driving sometimes in stressful situations"

It might shock you to know that there are people whose jobs are literally this; delivery drivers, removal companies, etc. Your local council will even send people to collect your household rubbish regularly, just incase you've been taking away yourself...

I hope everyone who doesn’t drive appreciate whenever they get a lift or want something picked up or delivered, help with moving or taking things to the tip. How much having a car costs, the effort gone into passing your test, driving sometimes in stressful situations.

What an utterly bizarre set of statements, which seem (yet again -- yawn) to be predicated upon the myth that non-drivers are by definition lazy, entitled leeches. If I'm moving house/taking something to the tip/having something delivered, I'm by definition paying someone to do it. So payment, rather than 'appreciation', is what is at stake. Are your clients 'appreciative' to you when you do your job that involves driving?

How much having a car costs, the effort gone into passing your test, driving sometimes in stressful situations.

No, you chose to take driving lessons and to buy and run a car, and if I remember rightly, up the thread you were very on-message about the freedom and fun of it all. I am choosing not to acquire the expense of buying and running a car, and to use some of that money saved, on the rare occasions I need to, to pay for deliveries or removals, or a taxi to somewhere I can't get to on foot or by bike or public transport.

So, no, I don't greet delivery drivers with ardent cries of gratitude, any more than, when I have a filling, I am suffused with gratitude at all the trouble, expense and effort my dentist went to to acquire her training.

We’re currently house hunting and started by saying that wherever we moved must have every amenity in the book in case we both become unable to drive in future. Then we actually applied our brains and worked out that two or three taxis a week to the nearest town would probably work out cheaper than running two cars. It was a real eye opener to see how car dependent we are and how brainwashed we are.

@blurpityblurp

It’s “crap towns” that should be strengthening their transport infrastructure. Obviously it’s not practical to have public transport serving someone who lives in a cottage halfway up a mountain miles from the nearest other home, but towns should have at least basic functional public transport systems. There’s a huge gap between major cities with great PT and super-rural areas with none.

Like I say, what about all the jobs that require their employees to drive? By not being able to drive, you're drastically cutting down employment options too!

Depends on the person. I can’t imagine any job I might want or be qualified for that requires driving. When I think of jobs that require driving I can only think of delivery, sales, minimum wage, or rural-type jobs. Many high paying jobs are either city based and/or provide transport. Okay if you’re a 17 year old school leaver living somewhere rural-ish and need any job it’d certainly increase your employment options, but not everyone is in that situation.

Lots of "qualified" type of jobs need people who can drive, such as community doctors and nurses, auditors who need to work at client premises, council planning inspectors, architects/surveyors who need to go to sites, installers/engineers visiting homes and workplaces - the list of "professionals" who need to travel to their customer/clients addresses is endless.

But again, you can’t just become a doctor, nurse or architect overnight. It’s not like if you fail your driving test you’ll be saying ‘Damn, I won’t be able to perform that kidney transplant on Tuesday’. These jobs require years of specialist training; they are careers you need to really want and actively invest in achieving. If driving is indeed a key part of these jobs, then yes, you’ll probably learn - just as you will if you want to live in a very rural area. But it’s not as if non-drivers would suddenly all become architects if they passed their tests.

@Alsohuman

We’re currently house hunting and started by saying that wherever we moved must have every amenity in the book in case we both become unable to drive in future. Then we actually applied our brains and worked out that two or three taxis a week to the nearest town would probably work out cheaper than running two cars. It was a real eye opener to see how car dependent we are and how brainwashed we are.

Dependency is one of the main reasons we have so many elderly, unsafe drivers on the road. They can’t imagine a life without driving.

Don't be a twat, Alex50, I listed many more jobs than just delivery driving. (Or is this like you accusing me of constantly going on about my parents when I mentioned them once?) I'm very fortunate than I'm established enough in my career that I'll never need to look for any job available just to pay the bills. But that's also because I made the choice to live in a city that offers more career opportunities, and because I chose to prioritise my education and career. I've done loads of different jobs during my life (did plenty of crap low paid jobs when I was young) and even the crap ones never required driving.

Even careers like doctor or architect only involve driving if you choose a job that specifically requires it. There's a huge difference between being a surgeon working at a West London hospital, and being a rural GP.

I hope everyone who doesn’t drive appreciate whenever they get a lift or want something picked up or delivered, help with moving or taking things to the tip.

I've literally never asked for a lift for any of these things, ever. Why would I? Do you often ask your friends to help lug moving crates around rather than hire movers?

And looking on down minimal paid jobs, without these people working through the pandemic you wouldn’t have had your shopping delivered and would’ve had to carry it on the bus or the tube.

I'm not looking down my nose at anyone. Just saying that people live different lives and make choices accordingly. Though as it happens I've not had a single grocery delivery during the pandemic because I have everything I could possibly want or need within easy walking distance. Though bringing shopping home on the bus isn't some outrageous hardship, plenty of people manage it just fine.