To think my 3 year old son should be able to dress as Elsa?

[stealthbanana]

My husband and I have just had an enormous fight about this...

My 3.5 year old DS loves Frozen, and has asked for me to buy him (a) a frozen dress up (ie an Elsa or anna costume) and (b) some
“Elsa and anna shoes” (a pair of sneakers one of his nursery classmates has, white with pics of elsa and anna on it).

I’ve just talked to DH about it and his response ha surprised me - he’s said he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”. We have a 1 year old daughter and I have said that I don’t think he would be as annoyed if she dresses up as eg fireman Sam and he said that “princesses are different I don’t think that being a fireman is a bad thing”. I asked about the shoes and he said he would be ok if they were “boys shoes”. I had to stop the conversation as was worried it would become a proper argument - he was very angry.

AIBU to think that it’s a total non big deal that a 3 year old wants to dress up as a princess and has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity as an adult?

But that isn’t the same tbh soon any more than a Scottish bloke wearing a kilt is.

I’m not “supporting him playing with gender” because it’s woke. He’s 3 ffs, he doesn’t know what gender is!! He likes; trains, animals, ballet class (yes he does ballet), music, football, climbing frames, paw patrol, reading.

His 1 year old sister seems to be mostly obsessed with dinosaurs, unicorns and dogs.

Totally normal!

I agree with you OP. Its dress up. It's nothingto do with gender. Lots of people argue that strong gender stereotypes actually encourage people to want to change gender, if they associate their interests and hobbies and preferences with another gender. For example if pink is only for girls and blue is only for boys then if a boy likes pink he will either repress it because he isnt 'supposed' to, or think 'well I must be a girl then', rather than just think 'I like pink' - its humans that have gendered objects such as colours and clothes, and relatively recently (just look at clothes a few hundred years ago or clothes from other cultures where men often wear skirt type garments).

I'd be pissed off at his anger to be honest. He can have a different opinion but why get aggressive over it. Why does he want to stop his son doing what he wants? Does he honestly think it will 'turn him' into a cross dresser? The frozen movies are hugely popular and have catchy music and the outfits are sparkly and fun, of course children of both sexes are going to be intrigued by it. And in any case, older boys can wear dresses and make up and still not want to be a girl. I'd also be pissed off with how hypocritical he is, how is your daughter going to believe that she can be anything she wants eg a scientist or engineer or a traditional male role, when your husband clearly shows through his treatment of your son that some things are for boys and some for girls?
I'd buy the dress and let him wear it when your husband isn't around. It's not fair on your son not to, it's not hurting your son or husband in any way

Of course he should be able to dress as Elsa!!

He knows he’s a boy though, I am guessing, and I’m sure it hasn’t totally escaped his notice he’s one of the only boys at ballet, for example.

He’s snoring next to me and I’m getting really furious about this Furious?

Its all very trendy and woke to say no it doesn't matter. Personally , I think it does. Of course let children dress up and have fun. I would gloss over the request for the dress and it will soon be forgotten.

My son is a happy and well adjusted gay young man btw.

I await a battering now.

but by letting him do so you could be starting him on a path to pubity blockers and genital mutilation.

I think the exact opposite.

By signalling that it’s fine for boys to wear dresses, you create a more flexible and accommodating definition of what it is to be male.

Thus preventing him from thinking this behaviour is ‘wrong’ for males - and anyone who feels this way should change sex.

Most 3 year olds know what's for girls and what's for boys. Your son clearly wants what the girls have.

Only if they’ve been raised with fucked up notions that some toys, clothes and hobbies are for girls and some are for boys.

• @HooNoes Just don't bring him into the women's loos or MN will turn on you for waving his dick around and such.* Stupid comment. No one is trying to keep young children out of womens' safe spaces.

'Totally normal!'

So maybe stop making such a thing of it.

Why some discussion with your DH about it all?

If he needs new trainers fair enough, but are the frozen style he wants practical?

Probably heaps of hand me down frozen outfits around.

YANBU but I have a similar problem with my DH. In his case it’s possibly partly cultural as he comes from somewhere less tolerant than here. We have two boys so don’t actually have any pretty dresses here but as soon as we go to someone else’s house it won’t be long before they both appear in sparkly dresses. I don’t think it’s really about ‘gender’ it’s about girls being the ones who get all the glitter and sparkle. Sequins are great if you’re a small child, why wouldn’t you want to wear a shiny dress? I think I’m with @Irelate on this - I wouldn’t buy them dresses for our house but am fairly chilled about other people’s houses. My DS (6) has a very good friend who is a girl. Last time we stopped by their house for an impromptu play he came down in her clothes because they had gone to get changed out of uniform (bright pink trousers) and my 3yo came down in a dress. At this age they’re just clothes!

FWIW, I’m fairly GC, but I don’t think dressing up at 3 is going to have much bearing on his gender presentation when he’s older. Making dressing up a taboo might though.

@Alabamawhirly1

I'm with your dh.

Letting little boys cross dress is opening up a can of worms. Your ds doesn't know that it's unusual for boys to dress in girls clothes - but by letting him do so you could be starting him on a path to pubity blockers and genital mutilation.

How will you feel if he ends up confused about his gender identity, others may tell him his liking of girls clothes means he is a girl. Before you know it you're off to the Tavistock, and social services are telling you to affirm or have him taken away.

Unfortunately we live in a world with very rigid gender norms for boys, letting him break them could just lead to hassle. I'd just get him frozen toys or a tshirt instead. Or can't he be the snowman, or the man or the dear?

Actually the opposite is usually the case. The head of Mermaids, Suzy Green, has spoken at length about her son, who is trans, being prevented by his father from playing with "girls toys" and dressing up in dresses at a young age because "boys don't do that". She thought he may be gay, and was relieved when he said he thought he was a girl. She took him to Thailand when he was 15 and he had his penis removed for his 16th birthday present! Preventing a child from actively playing with things that are seen as for the 'opposite' gender is damaging. It's perpetuating gender stereotypes, which we now know is harmful. A small child will think, oh I really like playing with dolls so I must be a girl because daddy says dolls are for girls. However, if daddy actually sat down and played dolls with his son, he will understand that anyone can play with dolls.

A three year old is NOT CROSS DRESSING!!

He’s playing make believe. Like kids are supposed to because it improves their imagination.

Ffs....no wonder there are parents out there convinced their kid is trans because they like wearing dresses and playing mummies and daddies.

It’s a kid thing. Not a gender identity thing

It is to a child though. Particularly the priestly ones. When a priest dresses in his vestments, he is putting on a costume. Not wearing a dress. When a young child (boy or girl) puts on a dress while dressing up, they are putting on a costume - of Elsa, Mummy, a witch, whatever. Not putting on a dress.

Gah I don't know what I'd do if I were you. Nothing is inherently male or female except maybe bras and sports cups. It is society deciding dresses are only for girls that leads to boys who want to wear them thinking they can't be a boy and must be a girl in a boys body imo.

I guess not an issue til Christmas? You've got time to talk it through.

Sorry. Thread moved that was to @Lemonadestrawberry

I was shopping with my husband and 4 year old son. My husband handed our son a pair of pink joggers and asked if he'd like them.

Our son was absolutely delighted as pink is his favourite colour.

That's how a dad should be.

I agree in part laurie, but my hesitation is more linked to the fact that, well, in an ideal world boys could wear dresses and be every bit ‘boy’ but in the world we live in it’s not the case.

I think insisting kids don’t know what gender/sex is is as misleading as claiming they don’t notice if someone is black or white - it’s as if once they ‘see’ it the age of innocence is over in some way. Of course children can and should know whether they are boys or girls.

Raising a child not to adhere to gender stereotypes at all might be admirable but it’s also IMO a road that leads to a confused and unhappy child.

If the boy was say ten it would be different, he isn’t, he’s three. And he ‘keeps asking’ for this dress, which does suggest a bit of a fixation on it.

It is just I have known parents who use their children to make a point and it’s the child who suffers. I’m with the DH on this one.

I disagree herja, I do think children know the difference between clothes for a specific purpose or culture and everyday clothes. I certainly did: might have been the vicar!

You need to have a conversation with your husband and remind him that this is DS childhood and he should be able to play how he chooses and enjoy all the different interests he has.

Preventing him playing Elsa dress up will potentially create some sort of shame in him or make it more appealing as it's something he's not supposed to do.

If he gets the Elsa costume he will most likely play with it for a while and then he will move on to something else, just like all kids do.

Maybe to avoid confrontation with DH buy a box of dress up items for the kids to play with, then if DS decides to be a princess and DD decides to be a dinosaur that’s them exploring their imaginations, your not encouraging any decisions you haven’t purposely bought a frozen dress for DS you’ve bought toys to share, so how could DH be angry about kids simply playing?

How am I meant to change my husband’s mind on this one?

In a partnership you won't always agree. You can't forcebly change your dh mind. He's entitled to his opinion. You need to find a compromise that you both find acceptable and makes your ds happy.

I agree with the above poster that said, people encouraged gender play now because it's trendy. The fact is cross dressing for boys and men is not a societal norm. Part of being a parent is teaching your child how we are expected to behave. If he wants to break down gender barriers when he's older, brilliant, but why encourage your child into being different for the sake of different. He may end up ridiculed and confused.

Girls dressing as spiderman or kids as animals is not a fair comparison because these are socially acceptable. Boys in dresses, right or wrong, is not accepted by wider society.

It might sound extreme but this would be a deal breaker for me.
Your H is acting like princess stuff is shameful and wrong for your son to like.

I wouldn't be able to let that go.

Yes Lemonadestrawberry. Clothes for a specific purpose. In the case of a child, the specific purpose is to dress up as a character rather than to wear a dress. Or to dress in something sparkly rather than to wear a dress. Children don't put the dress on because it's a dress, but for a specific reason.

My children are also well aware that our local priest wear a 'dress' for a purpose, also that he doesn't generally wear vestments, but that they are put on for a specific reason. Just like they do when they dress up.