To think my 3 year old son should be able to dress as Elsa?

[stealthbanana]

My husband and I have just had an enormous fight about this...

My 3.5 year old DS loves Frozen, and has asked for me to buy him (a) a frozen dress up (ie an Elsa or anna costume) and (b) some
“Elsa and anna shoes” (a pair of sneakers one of his nursery classmates has, white with pics of elsa and anna on it).

I’ve just talked to DH about it and his response ha surprised me - he’s said he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”. We have a 1 year old daughter and I have said that I don’t think he would be as annoyed if she dresses up as eg fireman Sam and he said that “princesses are different I don’t think that being a fireman is a bad thing”. I asked about the shoes and he said he would be ok if they were “boys shoes”. I had to stop the conversation as was worried it would become a proper argument - he was very angry.

AIBU to think that it’s a total non big deal that a 3 year old wants to dress up as a princess and has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity as an adult?

Of course he should be allowed. He's three and exploring characters through play. My DD loves spiderman and Woody from Toy Story - no one would bat an eyelid if she wanted to dress up as either of those, it's the dress that is getting your husband so irate. He's being totally unreasonable.

Here's a crazy thought......does a 3 year old simply have to have everything they wish for? Their ideas change fairly rapidly. Today he might want a space rocket or a puppy or a bag of Haribo or to be dressed as a panda.

This is it herja, it’s dress up, but it isn’t really is it? The child keeps asking for it.

I have known little children rifle through dressing up boxes and boys take out dresses and put them on amongst much giggling but that’s not what the OP is describing.

That is suggesting a lack of understanding and that could prove difficult in the years to come.

'I also think some parents are way too keen to support their child playing with gender because it’s now “trendy” He’s not playing with gender, he’s three! He has no concept of gender expectations or restrictions. What children should be learning is that not liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you male and liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you female.

It’s this sort of gender conforming bollocks that makes some men believe that being a woman is all about wearing pink and twirling your hair, and some women believe that they’re not capable of being an astronaut or an engineer.

@randomer

Its all very trendy and woke to say no it doesn't matter. Personally , I think it does. Of course let children dress up and have fun. I would gloss over the request for the dress and it will soon be forgotten.

My son is a happy and well adjusted gay young man btw.

I await a battering now.

What's woke or trendy about accepting that small children don't give a toss about gender stereotypes? It's hardly woke - I have a teenage boy who wore an Upsy Daisy costume when he was tiny because she was his favourite character from In The Night Garden. Nothing to do with being woke (which didn't exist 13 years ago) or any other kind of adult choice, just a young child having fun.

If you think there's nothing wrong with children dressing up why would you think it matters? Children dress up as all sorts of things given chance. What matters most is how the adults around them make them feel about themselves - self-esteem can take a battering when we tell children that their play, their choices and their imaginations have to be limited because x, y and z on Mumsnet think it matters.

@Lemonadestrawberry

He knows he’s a boy though, I am guessing, and I’m sure it hasn’t totally escaped his notice he’s one of the only boys at ballet, for example.

Knowing he's a boy is like knowing his name. He knows, because he will have heard it so many times, not because he was born knowing. Children learn what it is to be a girl or boy from what they see and hear, just as any other concept is developed. If mummy tells her son that only girls play dressing up, but he enjoys playing dressing up, he may well equate that to him being a girl. Hence 'gender dysphoria' begins. We no longer teach children that girls only like boys and boys only like girls, because, hopefully, homophobia! Go into most nurseries and you will see children being encouraged to play with all the toys available, they're not segregated into boys/girls toys. So why do it at home?

@Sn0tnose

'I also think some parents are way too keen to support their child playing with gender because it’s now “trendy” He’s not playing with gender, he’s three! He has no concept of gender expectations or restrictions. What children should be learning is that not liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you male and liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you female.

It’s this sort of gender conforming bollocks that makes some men believe that being a woman is all about wearing pink and twirling your hair, and some women believe that they’re not capable of being an astronaut or an engineer.

^^

This ten times over!

@Soontobe60

I wouldn't listen to anyone who said they were relived when they found out their son wasn't gay and took a 15 year old for genital mutilation surgery. This is also a woman desperate to affrim her sons trans gender identity, and an at best slightly bigoted husband. The kids was always gonna end up confused, not really a model to base decisions on.

You're also talking about shaming a boy for playing with dolls and dressing as a girl. I'm not advocating that at all. Toys arnt gendered neither are films and TV. But clothes are and I think it's better to explain that boys don't wear dresses, but he can have a frozen tshirt or dress as one of the other characters, than it is to let a boy dress a princess. Because it could lead to difficulties with how the rest of the world treat and perceive him.

Yes I agree alabama

Does it Lemonadestrawberry? My DS has recently begged and begged for around a year for a Bowser (mario) costume. Because he really fucking loves Bowser. Before I gave up and bought it for his birthday (my only objection was that it was bloody expensive), he mentioned it once a week or so for months and dressed up in anything he could find to create a Bowser costume. This suggests no conflict in identity with those of giant turtles, just a desire to dress as his favourite character. If the OPs DS just really likes frozen (which does hit some children like a bloody mania), it's exactly the same as my DS and his turtle outfit. Neither are doing anything but putting on unusual clothes for a specific reason.

How many girls/women dress in a frozen type dress on a regular basis (if ever) as general day clothes? It's a costume far more than it is a dress.

'He likes; trains, animals, ballet class (yes he does ballet)'

Does make me chuckle on these threads how the Op always has to slip the ballet bit in

Why the ‘fucking’ at me? I haven’t sworn at you

It's the misogyny at the root of this that would really bug me - the suggestion that things traditionally associated with boys are OK, indeed good to aspire to as a girl, but those traditionally associated with girls are unacceptable for a boy.

My 15yo son was helping me sort out children's clothes for a flea market yesterday. He had pre-sorted into 'girls'', 'boys'' and 'unisex'. He made a few interesting and (to me) quite surprising choices (a flowery sleepsuit as for a boy because it was blue, for instance) and we had a good conversation about roles and expectations. Things have definitely got more aggressively gendered since he was little (I've had 3 children over a period of ten years, he's the eldest).

My now 4 year old has been obsessed with Frozen since he was 1 - he absolutely loves it. My husband isn't so keen, but bought him his Elsa dress, the toys, the posters etc and for his 5th birthday in September he's getting the Lego castle. He also loves Paw Patrol, The Avengers and The Aristocats, we're not 'woke' I just have a child who knows what he likes.

I would however draw the line at Frozen trainers, but only because I prefer to buy footwear that's properly fitted.

I apologise @Lemonadestrawberry. Replace that with 'he really, really loves Bowser'. The swearing was not directed aggressively at you, just that I swear convesationally when not in a work environment, or around young children.

FYI he does ballet at his nursery and the class is 50/50 boys/girls before anyone has a go at me about that

I am struggling to think about how I square this circle with DH. It’s not even that he holds that view, it was the vehemence of it. I guess another conversation about it tonight....

My youngest was obsessed with frozen used to pick the magazine a lot and also a Disney princess type magazine and loved all the “girly “ accessories that came with them . It was never an issue . He also loved fireman Sam and was obsessed with cars I guess more “acceptable” boy things

Now older he is the epitome of stereotypical boy for his age , sports , gaming etc . Not through anything I have or haven’t done those are the things he has ended up liking I imagine in part to being amongst his school friends with similair interests .

My ds sometimes loves to take a skirt of mine and have a twirl as Elsa and we all have a laugh as he is just playing dress up. But going out to buy a dress? No that wont happen. I would not want to encourage him then wanting to go out or to school wearing a dress.
This is MN, you will hear how normal it is to find little boys prancing about in dresses. But I have yet to see one actually.
My dh and I have always bought my ds a variety of toys and clothes but no we won't be buying him dresses.
OP how many boys have you actually seen in dresses??

@Sn0tnose

'I also think some parents are way too keen to support their child playing with gender because it’s now “trendy” He’s not playing with gender, he’s three! He has no concept of gender expectations or restrictions. What children should be learning is that not liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you male and liking to wear dresses isn’t what makes you female.

It’s this sort of gender conforming bollocks that makes some men believe that being a woman is all about wearing pink and twirling your hair, and some women believe that they’re not capable of being an astronaut or an engineer.

Well said.

Not that girls / women can’t be into gaming or sports - I am myself but you get my drift he is very what people would stereotype young men to be interested in

Sorry herja I understand now.

I think the difference is a child knows he isn’t Boswer, he obviously knows he isn’t Elsa either but I would be worried about not adhering to gender norms while not fully understanding them.

What I mean is - let’s say I have a gay son and he decides aged fourteen to wear a skirt. As long as he understands he’s likely to elicit negative attention OK - but a three year old doesn’t and it seems a bit like setting them up.

Hi, I don’t think you should buy at the moment as your husband is clearly not happy with it. It will turn into a ‘thing’ & cause lots of arguments and be negative for your little boy. Buy him an elsa magazine as a poster said & in a little while buy a dressing up box with a selection of outfits or just arrange play dates where he can wear in someone else’s home. Also buy selection of toys, kitchen, ironing board, dolls house, park, babies food items etc etc as well as dinosaurs, cars etc
I wouldn’t buy the Elsa trainers. Your husband will be angry as they are for girls?? 🤔I think he’ll be judged in the playground by other kids/parents/grandparents. I know he’s only 3 but people are mean. I had 3 little boys & had same thing. I bought crocs as they were in then & you could buy little clasps that clicked in. So each had a selection on their crocs- Disney princess, Disney cars, spider man etc
There were also doodle canvas summer shoes by Clark’s which are colourful & fun which he might like? Also you could get iron on patch things for a T-shirt, so if husband dead against dress you could iron on an elsa patch? They used to have them in h&m.
Kids go through phases, in 6 months he will like something else.
He is being unreasonable but hey you married him !! And presumably he’s around the house now because of covid, generally intensifies disagreements a lot 🙃

If only life was that simple.
Your DH might have more experience that you about how nasty little boys can be to other little boys who are different.
Is your son old enough to understand that some other boys might laugh at him or tease him for doing so?
Not everyone is suited to being at the forefront of social change? A thick skin is required.

Its quite a big leap from " I want an Elsa costume " to genital surgery!

Just buy a few second hand bit and pieces, everybody happy.

Why can’t my boy copy a person of the opposite sex he finds cool? Why is my husband so aggressively against this?

Because aspiring to be something typically feminine equals bad, where as aiming towards something masculine equals good. Standard sexist views that he is making sure the children will grow up knowing.

Its the same with toys some people (stupid ones) insist there are toys for girls and toys for boys. Shock horror, all childrens toys are for girls and boys just as all childrens clothes are for girls and boys.