To think my 3 year old son should be able to dress as Elsa?

[stealthbanana]

My husband and I have just had an enormous fight about this...

My 3.5 year old DS loves Frozen, and has asked for me to buy him (a) a frozen dress up (ie an Elsa or anna costume) and (b) some
“Elsa and anna shoes” (a pair of sneakers one of his nursery classmates has, white with pics of elsa and anna on it).

I’ve just talked to DH about it and his response ha surprised me - he’s said he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”. We have a 1 year old daughter and I have said that I don’t think he would be as annoyed if she dresses up as eg fireman Sam and he said that “princesses are different I don’t think that being a fireman is a bad thing”. I asked about the shoes and he said he would be ok if they were “boys shoes”. I had to stop the conversation as was worried it would become a proper argument - he was very angry.

AIBU to think that it’s a total non big deal that a 3 year old wants to dress up as a princess and has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity as an adult?

I’m trying very hard to teach my ds there are no girls or boys things

Unfortunately he’s influenced by his friends at school so if I give him a pink cup, cos that’s all that’s in the cupboard, he will cry because it’s a girls cup.

I then firmly remind him it’s just a cup and if he wants a drink, he will drink it

He gets it eventually,...then goes back to school and unlearns it all again

Utter rubbish, they can wear what they want! My youngest until 6 wore only boys clothes and played with boys toys, she's not caught the gay or been confused about her identity since

Homophobia exists - it includes stupid, prejudiced boys beating up other boys who they assume are gay because they wear dresses.

We try and protect our daughters from male violence, let's try and protect our sons too.

But please let me make it clear I don't think this is easy problem.

I want boys to be able to wear dresses. I want boys to think girls and women are great and have female role-models and heroes/heroines. I love self-expression. I hate bigotry.

What got my goat was the stream of breezy replies suggesting there was no problem and then the nasty posts about Ori's husband suggesting he was a nasty bigot.
Mr Ori seems to me to be an honest, decent person whose first instinct is to protect his child. And unlike many posters he does have the advantage of having been a boy, even if that was a few years ago. So for once a little bit of mansplaining might not be out of place.

Even if Mr Ori's first instinct is wrong and he should be primarily concerned with breaking down gender barriers and/or exploring his son's creativity/self-expression, it isn't a bad first instinct to have - to protect your child.

So returning to the OP, perhaps my only tentative advice would be: don't fall out with your DH about this. I don't think it is as easy as many of the early breezy replies suggest. I'm sure the three of you will get there in the end.

OP
My son was also an Elsa obsessive. He insisted on wearing the costume to nursery on a regular basis at the same age as your DS. He was still kicking around with my dresses and jewellery when he was five.

Your DH is being ridiculous, but it’s not unusual. Mine was not overly thrilled about the dress phase, nor was my MIL. But, in most cases, it’s just a phase, kids are not fully cognisant of gender at that age and the best thing to do is just let them get on with and say little.

Not that it should matter anyway, but my DS is now a strapping young lad, rugby mad, and has of late developed crushes on girls. (The blushing and embarrassment is very endearing.) He also thinks the photos of him in an Elsa costume are sweet and funny, because I made it a point to never describe any item of clothing as girly or make a fuss of it.

Stick to your guns OP.

Homophobia exists - it includes stupid, prejudiced boys beating up other boys who they assume are gay because they wear dresses.

And homosexuality also exists. So does a whole range of behaviours that don’t fit with t
some perceived idea of how a certain type of physically strong, aggressive masculinity should manifest

Teaching children to repress or minimise a part of themselves to appease bullies may come from a good place, but it’s never the answer in thy e long term.

This would be a serious problem for me, either wondering what his opinion of women is or what his reaction to gay children might be. I wasn't allowed to play with my brothers cars as a kid and he was yelled at for playing with my dolls. Jokes on my dad as I am bisexual and was the biggest tomboy in the world as I grew older.

I have no time for gender norms. I think they cause unhappiness. I don't hold the usual thoughts about trans people by the majority of mumsnetters but i do agree that gender roles can cause damage. I remember hating being a girl when younger as I couldn't do any of the things I actually wanted to.

It is just clothing. High heels were invented for men.

The only questions should be:

1. are the trainers functional, comfortable and does he need new trainers?

1. Will he play with and enjoy a fairly innocuous toy? Does the toy encourage imaginative play and creativity?

A child's character is his character and no amount of banning toys is going to change that.

Besides, my DH's mum says that his favourite toy was a toy hoover and sadly that hasn't lasted until adulthood.

At 3 kids may have a vague notion of 'boys' stuff and 'girls' stuff, but to be honest it doesnt really seem to kick in until Primary.

It shows me that is such an unusual thing, having a strong female character as the lead, that this is causing problems for many men, who have grown up seeing men in the starring roles, and is not a problem for kids who havent had that historical background.

An elsa dress, or an anna dress are not really 'dresses' in the normal scheme of things. They are not the little flowery dress that their peers wear. They are the outfit of the heroes of a film that they love.

Its telling that we are so used to male characters being the lead, that barely anyone makes a fuss at girls wanting to wear those costumes. They are too little at 3 to really differentiate or notice that the character is male or female. Its dress up. Its fantasy.

So he isnt wanting to dress up 'as a girl' he is wanting the costume that goes with the characteristics and story of a film he loves.

My son, at 3, wanted to wear his sisters witch costume for every hallowwen event that year. because witches were cool and they had cauldrons and pointy hats and swishy dresses. A good bit of swishing or twirling is fun.

its not an issue if nobody makes it one. And making it one risks causing a lot more harm than letting the phase pass. Or not pass.

toys are toys and clothes are clothes and the charcteristics attributed to either sex can be felt and expressed by both. It doesnt stop him being a boy, he isnt 'expressing his gender identity' he is dressing up as a character he likes from a film thats captured his attention.

Ori. You dh should teach his sons to be leaders, not followers. To do what is right not just to fit in.

he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”

A child being told that only girls want to wear dresses is far more likely to make a male child question their gender identity, IMO.

Because if DS wants to wear an Elsa dress, whether he actually gets to wear it or not is beside the point - he will already have been sent the message that only girls want to wear dresses and that therefore there is something wrong with him if he wants to wear one (even if he learns not to express his wishes to his parents about it).

Then he'll be set on a lifelong path of believing that his inner feelings about these harmless pieces of fabric reveal some deep existential truth about his being, picking up all sorts of scraps of evidence from gender stereotypes and fuelled by confirmation bias, eventually becoming convinced that he must therefore have been born in the wrong body.

@NettleTea mt little boy was a witch fot Halloween last year, when he was 3. We went to all of the supermarkets to look at outfits and each time he picked witch, "because it has a hat and i want to wear a hat"....the hat also came with a neon and black satin dress with sequins!

I'll be honest, I did try to dissuade him as I knew this wasn't just for dressing up at home: we had parties and trick or treating we had planned. I had no problem with him wearing it, but was worried about him coming across attitudes like those mentioned by some PP.

In the end, I bought it. It is my job as a parent to instil and model the values I want my child to have. If I'd have had to defend his choice of outfit to others I would, if only to say that no one has the right to put a limit on what you want to be. Because that's all it boils down to in the end.

It shows me that is such an unusual thing, having a strong female character as the lead

It’s not unusual at all. What’s unusual is that boys are far more interested in this type of story than in the past, which is progress

Wow some people on here just have to get personal & continuously miss the point!

My DH was just explaining what he thought was at play in this scenario when a man resists putting his son in a dress! Whether people like it or not, boys are likely to pick on another boy in a dress - my DH was simply saying he would have thought this is the reason why the OP’s husband didn’t like it.

Would you send your son to school in a dress? If the answer is no then you are also a subversive agent in the male reality which is a degree of early patriarchy. This was an act of protection for the son from a father who has grown up judged, as all boys are, by OTHER BOYS.

It does not mean men subscribe to patriarchy - it is the act of recognising it exists.

hierarchical structure
Look no further than your blue table or your silver table for 6 year olds if you want to see hierachy........now that really is damaging.

@SueEllenMishke

Your husband sounds awful.

I think he was just trying to provide some insight into the male perspective. You are pretty awful for making such a personally rude comment. I don’t mind a debate but clearly some people cannot conduct one without slipping into petty insults. Wish I’d never posted TBH

Buy it, it will be cast aside in favour of some plastic before the week is over.

YANBU.

But - although your husband is being unreasonable- he’s alluded to why. Clothes and toys should be gender free, but - more and more - there’s a push to load gendered significance onto a person’s likes and childish whims.

Your husband might just be - albeit clumsily - expressing a fear that your son might be pushed to believe that dressing up games = gender.
And he would be right, because that IS happening.

Ask your son - in age appropriate way - what he thinks wearing a dress means , and why he likes the idea.

Buy it, it will be cast aside in favour of some plastic before the week is over. Probably

My DH was just explaining what he thought was at play in this scenario when a man resists putting his son in a dress!

That’s not just what he was explaining though, was it? He also said that he absolutely wouldn’t allow his son to wear an Elsa dress (correct me if that’s wrong).

That’s not just ‘recognising patriarchal society exists’ it’s supporting its assertion that this kind of masculinity is desirable. It’s sending the message to a child of his that if he’s any different, that won’t be accepted by his father. Which is tragic imo.

The comparison to school wear is ridiculous btw. That’s a highly regulated environment, where a lot more is at play than sex. People send their children in uniform or in line with a dress code.

Compared to dressing up where the whole point is to experiment, play with, enjoy costumes, characters and unleash their imaginations.

Ask your son - in age appropriate way - what he thinks wearing a dress means , and why he likes the idea.

I don’t know the child, but based on my experience with children of that age I doubt that question would make any sense to him. Because I don’t think he would see himself as a ‘boy wearing a dress’ rather a ‘kid being Elsa’.

In the end, I bought it. It is my job as a parent to instil and model the values I want my child to have. If I'd have had to defend his choice of outfit to others I would, if only to say that no one has the right to put a limit on what you want to be. Because that's all it boils down to in the end.

Very nicely put.

Ask your son - in age appropriate way - what he thinks wearing a dress means , and why he likes the idea

If I’d have asked mine at 3 that question he would’ve looked at me like I’d lost my marbles and said “because otherwise I won’t look like Elsa”.

I think your husband is homophobic and thinks your son wearing a dress will encourage him to be gay. Personally at 3 I'm with you on thinking it's just dress up they don't really know what gender is

Ask your son - in age appropriate way - what he thinks wearing a dress means , and why he likes the idea

Personally, I firmly believed I was a horse up until about aged 6, thereafter I believed I could flit between horse and human as and when the mood took me.

Are you insane? Small children do not need this shit in their lives.

Ask your son - in age appropriate way - what he thinks wearing a dress means , and why he likes the idea
Whilst I understand your concerns about some agendas towards children and gender, I don't think this is a good idea.

If anything what the child needs is a parent who protects from harmful ideologies who seek to twist perfectly innocent child's play into genderism. Asking the questions about what dresses mean is unnecessary. There's nothing to say. A boy is dressing as a film character.

Any adult or organisation who looks at a child playing dress up and and would want to argue about gender identity, and start leading the parents/suggesting to the child that they aren't really a boy are the ones with the issues. The more parents take the view 'my child is their biological sex regardless of their interests' the better.